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Old January 20, 2014, 09:03 AM   #51
Garycw
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I absolutely would and have, but not because of clothes as others have mentioned. Alot of dress looks strange to me these days. I must say I've been Very lucky with the FTF people I've dealt with, both buying & selling.
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Old January 20, 2014, 09:06 AM   #52
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Walmart sells pressure cookers every day to people who look like the Boston bombing bothers.
Making a decision to sell anything to anyone based on their looks alone is just dumb.

And what about that Opie Taylor look-alike Karl Halverson Pierson?
Would he slide right by everyones finely tuned sociopath detector?

If I'm working the register and a clean-cut Eddie Haskell is buying five huge rat traps and tells me he's going to set them outside his sisters bedroom door I'm not likely to complete the sale.

I get the point of the thread - the kid gave you a copy-cat vibe.
He may be exactly that, or not.
A picture is worth absolutely zero... Refrain from judgement until you interact.
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Old January 20, 2014, 09:56 AM   #53
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Unless your mother still dresses you, your appearance in public is a conscious choice.

If you choose to present an appearance that is sketchy, unusual, associated with gang or other criminal activity, or otherwise stands out from the crowd, you shouldn't be surprised when people consider that appearance when they evaluate you.

It's beyond me why a person wouldn't consider how another chooses to behave in public as part of their judgement of that person.

It really doesn't matter whether you are the nicest person on the planet. Dress like a scary person, get treated like a scary person. You don't like it? Don't act scary.

As for the OP, if I had picked up on the vibes he described, I wouldn't sell the kid a butter knife.
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Old January 20, 2014, 02:11 PM   #54
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Shouldn't the big deal be that he appeared no older than 18? That should rule out him being able to purchase a handgun shouldn't it? Maybe he was actually 17 and wasn't able to buy a gun at the show period.
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Old January 20, 2014, 02:34 PM   #55
Nine the Ranger
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I take a slight offense to this as I imagine I would look quite similar to this kid, perhaps a few minor changes to the clothes.

Unless he is ACTING suspicions, I see no problem.
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Old January 20, 2014, 02:37 PM   #56
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I do get the idea of not projecting my own fears onto someone,respecting other folks freedom of expression,etc,etc.

But there is a PC idea that we are not supposed to judge...well,all things in moderation.

That can be a cop out,an abdication of the responsibility to excersize good judgement.

If I was selling hot dogs,it would be different.

All hypothetical,I sell few guns and when I do,trusted friends or relatives get them.

I'm a beard,jeans and tee shirt,boots ,rusty pickup guy.Sometimes Carharts.

Its OK to trust the voice in my ear that says "Bad idea"

Last edited by HiBC; January 20, 2014 at 02:46 PM.
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Old January 20, 2014, 08:54 PM   #57
dakota.potts
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After my earlier post, I will relate something I heard from my parents.

They went to a gun store to look around and there were some kids in there with leather jackets, shaved heads, white power/aryan brotherhood patches, etc. and were rude and possibly suggestive of racist comments.

One of them failed the NICS background check and when another asked to buy it instead the gun store owner turned the lot of them away.

A very extreme example, but I fully support the move.
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Old January 20, 2014, 09:08 PM   #58
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Go with my gut!!

If I think someone is "shady", there would be no way in the world I would sell to them!!

Discrimination laws, and firearm laws be damned. I want to have a good nights sleep!!
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Old January 20, 2014, 09:12 PM   #59
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Quote:
They went to a gun store to look around and there were some kids in there with leather jackets, shaved heads, white power/aryan brotherhood patches, etc.
Now that is one class of people to whom I will deny service without the least bit of guilt. I've done so before. Not because they've made bad fashion choices, but because of the mindset those fashion choices embody.
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Old January 20, 2014, 09:27 PM   #60
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I don't know if it's just me, but when I'm doing any business involving a firearm, including buying ammo, I try to look respectable.

You never get a second chance at a 1st impression.

Then again, it may be some deep seated desire to be liked......

Whiskey, I judge a book by it's cover, too. It's ok. You live to be an old man by keeping your guard up, going with your gut, and watching your own back.
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Old January 20, 2014, 09:59 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colbad
I am curious how those who are advocating the sale based upon "rights" would feel if the "shady" individual came into your store of FTF wearing with pride his full "gang" colors or outlaw biker cut telling the world of his affiliation? Even if he does pass the NICS, you going to sell it to him.
The last guy I saw in a gun shop who looked like that, complete with hair down to his waist, turned out to be an undercover cop working on a drug task force, and we DID sell him a Remington rifle because he was getting ready to go to Sniper school.

Don't make assumptions
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Old January 20, 2014, 10:47 PM   #62
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Would you refuse to sell a gun to someone you think is shady?
I'm not an FFL so I don't have the luxury of a NICS check. If I have the slightest inkling that a buyer has no business with my gun, I won't sell it. If I'm wrong, he can still buy a gun anywhere else. 95% of the guns I've sold in the last 20 years have gone through a FFL for that very reason. The other 5% are people I know personally and have no reservations about.

If I lose 10-20% selling to a FFL, that money bought me something priceless- peace of mind.
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Old January 20, 2014, 11:02 PM   #63
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I would refuse, and I have

I was selling a handgun in excellent shape. A young man came by to buy it, was cocky, I didn't get a good feeling from him and refused to sell it. He said I had to, I told him he was trespassing and that was the end of it.
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Old January 20, 2014, 11:57 PM   #64
crashxl
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Funny that 1%ers got brought up. Some of the nicest guys I've ever met are 1%ers. I would have no problem selling them a firearm.
One of worst people I have ever met is clean cut suit and tie type fellow. Was very abusive physically and verbally to his wife and kids. No way I would ever sell him a firearm.
Most of my friends ride motorcycles. Some Harley's. Some sport bikes. They all have a carry permit and use it.
Would you sell my friend a gun if he pulled up on a harley all dressed in leather? What if I told you he just came back from Afghanistan and barley survived a rocket attack there? What if I told you he is member of the CMA?
Point is you can never judge a book by its cover.
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Old January 21, 2014, 01:17 AM   #65
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Shouldn't the big deal be that he appeared no older than 18? That should rule out him being able to purchase a handgun shouldn't it? Maybe he was actually 17 and wasn't able to buy a gun at the show period.
Not really. I've known people well into their 40's that still looked like teenagers and I myself could have probably passed for 30 when I was a teenager.

Also, we're assuming that the individual in question was going to the gun show to try to buy a gun. Afterall, you can buy lots of things at gun shows besides guns. Maybe he was looking for an old military uniform to use as a costume in a play, maybe he was looking for some sort of decorative knife or sword which are commonly sold at gun shows, or maybe he'd simply never been to a gun show before and wanted to see what it was all about. Heck, when my siblings were young they liked going to gun shows with my dad because there was usually a lady selling beanie babies at one particular table.

The point is that an awful lot of assumptions are being made based on very little in the way of facts. The only facts that we have is that an individual who appeared young to the OP was seen going into a gun show wearing clothing that the OP felt looked suspicious. Maybe the person in question was a bad egg, or maybe it was laundry day and the "suspicious" outfit happened to be the only clean clothes he had available, we don't know.
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Old January 21, 2014, 01:36 AM   #66
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In a private sale, it's your gun and you can sell it to whomever you want.

If you don't feel right, don't sell it.

A FFL isn't likely to deny a sale based on appearance alone.
Nailed it. If i was getting a bad feeling from someone, i doubt i would sell it.
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Old January 21, 2014, 08:29 AM   #67
Skans
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Absolutely, I would not sell a gun to someone who looked hinkey!!! Even if I was a licensed FFL in the business of selling guns, I would turn away someone I thought was a shill, a thug or simply looked deranged to me. If you were in the business of selling pressure cookers and some 18 year old hinkey looking youth came in to buy one, would you sell it to him?

Quote:
Now, I usually agree with the old saying "don't judge a book by it's cover"
I don't agree with this. I judge everyone by how they look. And, then I continue to judge them by how they act. We all do!

Last edited by Skans; January 21, 2014 at 08:38 AM.
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Old January 21, 2014, 09:06 AM   #68
5whiskey
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Funny that 1%ers got brought up. Some of the nicest guys I've ever met are 1%ers. I would have no problem selling them a firearm.
One of worst people I have ever met is clean cut suit and tie type fellow. Was very abusive physically and verbally to his wife and kids. No way I would ever sell him a firearm.
1%er does not mean everyone who rides motorcycles, nor does it include every motorcycle club. The blue knights, watchmen, CMA, and tons of others are motorcycle clubs, but they're not 1%ers. 1%ers are members of motorcycle clubs that embrace a criminal sub-culture. I hear all the time that "I know such and such" and he's a nice guy. "Such and such" probably isn't a 1%er, and if he is he may be a nice guy but when he puts his vest on and is told to acquire a firearm for a senior member (convicted felon) of the group, then he has to do what he's told.
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Old January 21, 2014, 09:21 AM   #69
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Intuition is not always wrong nor is it always right. But. if my intuition tells me someone shouldn't buy my gun, I don't sell it. As a matter of fact, (I'm not an FFL) I have never sold a gun to anyone I don't know well.

So my opinion is that if you doubt the prospective buyer, don't sell. Send him to a legitimate dealer.
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Old January 21, 2014, 10:49 AM   #70
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"Then your FFLs are different than ours. I've seen a dealer kick someone out of their store for having droopy drawers, wearing an Obama t shirt, smelling bad, and not being able to speak English. All justified in my eyes."


Several years ago I was working (solo!) a gunshop in Fairfax, Virginia, part time.

I kicked one ass out of the shop because of the T shirt he was wearing:

"Feeling suicidal?" (picture of hangman's noose)

"Take someone with you!" (picture of handgun)

Told him in no uncertain terms to get the hell out of my shop and never come back.

He went after spouting off a few choice comments.

Was I denying him his Constitutional rights?

What do I look like, the US Government passing a law denying guns to morons wearing shirts encouraging murder suicide?
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Old January 21, 2014, 11:00 AM   #71
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I haven't read the whole thread, but the original question was:
Quote:
Would you refuse to sell a gun to someone you think is shady?
My answer: Yes, I would. In a heartbeat. Up until payment and gun are exchanged, it's my gun. If anything about the buyer sends up red flags for me, I'm out and he can go looking for a gun somewhere else.
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Old January 21, 2014, 11:02 AM   #72
Jim243
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If he's someone I wouldn't let my daughter date, I sure as hell wouldn't sell them a gun. Hell she's married (not at the same time) two I wouldn't sell a gun to and one is still my son-in-law. (LOL)

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Old January 21, 2014, 11:12 AM   #73
Garycw
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Id even go one step further and not BUY a gun from someone that was very shady.
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Old January 21, 2014, 06:52 PM   #74
crashxl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5whiskey View Post
1%er does not mean everyone who rides motorcycles, nor does it include every motorcycle club. The blue knights, watchmen, CMA, and tons of others are motorcycle clubs, but they're not 1%ers. 1%ers are members of motorcycle clubs that embrace a criminal sub-culture. I hear all the time that "I know such and such" and he's a nice guy. "Such and such" probably isn't a 1%er, and if he is he may be a nice guy but when he puts his vest on and is told to acquire a firearm for a senior member (convicted felon) of the group, then he has to do what he's told.

I am well aware of the difference between one percent clubs and 99 percent clubs. Like I said I know many people that are in one percent clubs. Most of them are in the outlaws. Not all the chapters of the outlaws or hells angels are like they are portrayed in the news and various tv shows. Just because they are labeled a one percent club does not mean they are out killing people!
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Old January 21, 2014, 09:57 PM   #75
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Quote:
Id even go one step further and not BUY a gun from someone that was very shady.
Good point and a nice new twist on the thread.
Neither would I.... not even if I wanted it real bad.
Few things would suck worse than coughing up several hundred bucks for a stolen or crime gun.
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