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Old January 19, 2014, 11:59 AM   #26
OEF-Vet
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I am not an FFL dealer but I do not feel it is an infringement on anyone's constitutional rights to refuse to sell to someone who gives them a bad feeling. The "shady" purchaser is free to go to another dealer.

One dealer refusing to sell to an individual based on a gut feeling is i no way blacklisting that person so they can never own a gun.

Is it possible this one dealers gut feeling could give a person on the edge of doing something stupid a little more time to think things through? Yes I belive it is entirely possible.
It is not a dealers responsibility to go beyond the standard background check nor do I think most dealers are behavioral experts but I believe it is the dealers right to not do business with a person that makes them feel uncomfortable.

As far as private sale, I would not sell to someone I felt was "shady" but as others have said I would not base that simply on their appearance.
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Old January 19, 2014, 12:35 PM   #27
Knight cadet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreyzhorse

A FFL isn't likely to deny a sale based on appearance alone.
Then your FFLs are different than ours. I've seen a dealer kick someone out of their store for having droopy drawers, wearing an Obama t shirt, smelling bad, and not being able to speak English. All justified in my eyes.
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Old January 19, 2014, 01:09 PM   #28
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I've seen a dealer kick someone out of their store for having droopy drawers, wearing an Obama t shirt, smelling bad, and not being able to speak English. All justified in my eyes.
Heck, I've sold guns to folks fitting most of those criteria at some point. Someone smells bad? Maybe they just got off a shift laying roofing tile. Obama t-shirt? Money's more important than political dogma. The guy from the Ukraine embassy didn't speak English well, but that's no reason not to sell him something to shoot in the local bullseye league.

The cues that make me leery go deeper than simple appearance. Suspicion of chemical intoxication, suspicion of mental illness, or suggestions of vigilante behavior are certainly a reason to put the kabosh on a sale. But droopy pants? I know a few good folks who happen to dress that way, and they appreciate not being judged by arbitrary criteria.
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Old January 19, 2014, 01:17 PM   #29
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I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason I please.
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Old January 19, 2014, 02:22 PM   #30
Knight cadet
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These people got kicked out of the store, not just refused a sale.
I asked afterwards and this was the reasoning:

droopy drawers: "look like a thug, act like a thug, makes me think they're casing my store or up to shady business"

wearing an Obama t shirt
: "I won't support anyone who is trying to destroy my gun rights by doing business with them"

smelling bad this guy didn't need an explanation, he smelled like urine and hadn't bathed in a LOOOONG time. He was looking for a cup of coffee and a handout. I wouldn't want that sort in my business either.

not being able to speak English
: "If the guy can't speak English, how can I know that he understands my safety instructions or how to answer the questions on the form correctly?"

Everyone wants to be fair, but if some crazy looking guy wants to buy a gun from you and you sell it to him, how are you going to deal with your conscience if he does something crazy? Do you have the time and energy to talk to the police and ATF as part of their investigation? For FFLs, can you afford the lawyer to keep your license when the ATF shuts you down like they did the shop that sold the guns used in sandy hook?


I've seen many shops with signs like these:
[IMG]http://media.khou.com/images/356*198/Saggy_Pants_McDonalds_Noon.jpg[/IMG]




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Old January 19, 2014, 02:43 PM   #31
Don P
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Quote:
I actually had this conversation with a LGS owner.
He told me that the BATFE was behind him 100% when it came to his "gut feeling" about refusing to sell a gun to someone.
I'm not sure exactly what he meant by that though.

He did go on to say he had a lot of latitude.
Absolutely correct!
Anyone can refuse to sell to any individual.
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Old January 19, 2014, 03:11 PM   #32
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Knight cadet:

These people got kicked out of the store, not just refused a sale.

Kicking someone out of your store/refusing to serve them based on country of origin(not speaking English) or political affiliation(wearing an Obama shirt) is considered arbitrary discrimination under the Unruh Civil Rights Act and is unlawful.
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Old January 19, 2014, 03:35 PM   #33
SHR970
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Buck,

Unless I am mistaken, Unruh is California State Law (California Civil Code Sec. 51) and not enforceable in the 49 other states, D.C., or the territories.

And there is no protection for political affiliation in it (Obama T-shirt).

Edit to add: I am not an FFL but as I am in Cali., I would have the required signage to Refuse Service to Anyone properly posted. I can presume not speaking English is indicative of a status of someone that I would be legally prohibited to sell to unless they could provide the legal documentation that they are here legally. I then would simply not state a specific reason why I refuse to serve them. If they refuse to leave, then I would summon L.E. to explain it to them. They can deal with the language barrier.

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Old January 19, 2014, 03:53 PM   #34
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SRH970, you are correct, Unruh is a California law. In other states, the The Federal Civil Rights Act protects the right of the consumer. Unruh does have provision for political discrimination as well as making it illegal to discriminate against individuals based on unconventional dress.
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Old January 19, 2014, 04:20 PM   #35
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Quote:
The cues that make me leery go deeper than simple appearance. Suspicion of chemical intoxication, suspicion of mental illness, or suggestions of vigilante behavior are certainly a reason to put the kabosh on a sale. But droopy pants? I know a few good folks who happen to dress that way, and they appreciate not being judged by arbitrary criteria.
I agree with the above. Saggy pants, while it may have begun in the criminal sub-culture, is now more of a pop-culture phenomena. Heck, it's often combined with skinny jeans these days. I certainly don't look everyone dressed like this as if they're criminals. I shake my head and wonder how on earth we have reached this as the nexus of style... but that's another topic.

Quote:
As far as private sale, I would not sell to someone I felt was "shady" but as others have said I would not base that simply on their appearance.
I would rarely take solely appearance and deny for that reason alone (there was one example of the gang dress coupled with the gang tattoo... don't even have to talk to that guy to feel him out). HiBC kinda summed it up with this...

Quote:
Black duster....?Hmmm.Brings Columbine to mind.Just my problem?Well,a young man who wears a black duster to a gun show ,IMO,is excersizing poor judgement.
How many people here are going to go out OCing while wearing a "shoot first and let God sort 'em out" t-shirt? Probably no one, and most would probably shake our head a little if we see someone else do it. That's a particularly bad judgement call, shows lack of tact, and doesn't further our RKBA. I wouldn't necessarily think the guy is a horrible person... just a little insensitive and not the centerpiece that I want on display for 2A issues. An 18 year old (or younger, for all I know) kid dressed like he came out of the chess club meeting while wearing a black trench coat just screams columbine, sandy hook, and a number of other crazies. Surely he should know that wearing this to a gun show is not the greatest of ideas. He may not be a bad person. Hey, for all we know he may have a friend close by that's catching his conversations on video. Maybe he's on some kind of fishing expedition for an anti-2A documentary and he wants to see if anyone will sell him anything dressed as such ala Michael Moore "bowling for columbine" style. OR... maybe this is a case of "fitting the profile" (no one here will disagree that this happens) and he is looking to flip out one day. Either way, I would be very wary of selling a firearm to him.
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Old January 19, 2014, 04:24 PM   #36
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Let me get this straight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
I see the strangest thing. I see a very young looking kid walking through the parking lot in wrinkled pleated kakhi pants, a plain (very cheap) white polo shirt that you can almost see through, unkempt hair and facial appearance, plain white Reebok tennis shoes, and a black duster trench coat half buttoned up. This kid couldn't have been older than 18, walking toward the gun show looking like that.
You started this thread because you saw a ~18 year old kid that was dressed funny?
Really? Thats the strangest thing to you? Arent they all goofy looking??
Have you not watched some of the Youtube gun enthusiast videos out there?
There's a huge percentage of gun people that creep me out... including some of my own family

Seeing "shady looking" people of all ages at gun shows should surprise you not.
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Old January 19, 2014, 04:29 PM   #37
5whiskey
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Quote:
You started this thread because you saw a ~18 year old kid that was dressed funny?
Really? Thats the strangest thing to you? Arent they all goofy looking??
Have you not watched some of the Youtube gun enthusiast videos out there?
I've seen plenty of funny dressed teenagers... I've never seen someone who actually tried to mirror their dress almost exactly after Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and then walk into a gun show. Hey, I saw some thug looking types walk in too but I didn't even pay them much attention. I have never seen this...
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Old January 19, 2014, 06:23 PM   #38
colbad
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I am curious how those who are advocating the sale based upon "rights" would feel if the "shady" individual came into your store of FTF wearing with pride his full "gang" colors or outlaw biker cut telling the world of his affiliation? Even if he does pass the NICS, you going to sell it to him.

Personally, I am with those who recognize his potential right to bear arms but my right to sell to who I want....FFL or not. Thoughts?
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Old January 19, 2014, 06:28 PM   #39
Rifleman1776
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Based on his appearance is not enough (usually) to deny someone the right to purchase a gun. Some in a group of gangbangers might give me pause but that is still being judgemental.
When I had my shop in Indiana there was a fellow in our small town who was known to be mentally retarded. Nice but really slow. One day he came in wanting to buy ammunition and a gun. I was really hincky about selling to him. I managed to get away and called one of his relatives who assured me he would be OK. I took her word and made the sale.
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Old January 19, 2014, 06:52 PM   #40
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I was selling a 12ga shotgun once a long time ago, had a guy call me about buying the gun, asked him if he was an Illinois resident, yea, so am I and I asked him if he had his FOID, which he said no, then it got interesting, went from him saying he was willing to pay more than I was asking too saying he could have a friend with a foid come with on the purchase. Told him sorry I couldn't sell it to him advised him to apply for a FOID and trying to purchase a firearm in Illinois without a FOID was illegal in the state. Ironically I did sell the gun to a guy from Iowa who only had to legally have ID, drivers license and made a bill of sale to him and a copy for my records. Illlinois is a pita with the new rules on private transfers. if I do sell any more guns im more likely to just transfer threw a ffl than a ftf transfer.
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Old January 19, 2014, 07:02 PM   #41
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Wow, I wonder how many folks in this thread would not sell a firearm to me.

I have long hair, facial hair(often a 2-3 days shadow) Since I work in industry, my hands and fingernails are often dirty (it's pretty hard to always scruff ink and grease stains off.) For the same reason, if I am returning or going to work, I am wearing stained jeans and a dirt jacket. I also wear leather and black T-shirts.

Basing you judgments on appearances is simply ignorant.
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:20 PM   #42
5whiskey
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Quote:
I have long hair, facial hair(often a 2-3 days shadow) Since I work in industry, my hands and fingernails are often dirty (it's pretty hard to always scruff ink and grease stains off.) For the same reason, if I am returning or going to work, I am wearing stained jeans and a dirt jacket. I also wear leather and black T-shirts.

Basing you judgments on appearances is simply ignorant.
You may laugh at me because I am different, I laugh at you because you are all the same.
Joe, I'm not trying to be judgmental. I didn't mean this discussion to turn toward guys who are into punk rock, have tats (not gang tats), who have long hair, facial hair, piercings, wear biker clothes (excluding someone wearing a 1% three piece patch), or who work in the field and stay dirty most of the time (I grew up on a tobacco farm, I'm certainly no stranger to that). I didn't mean for this discussion to turn that direction, and I generally don't condone judging someone based off of their dress or looks. With my first post, describing the Adam Lanza look-alike, I guess this is a case of a picture is worth a thousand words.
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:25 PM   #43
Knight cadet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo6pak
Wow, I wonder how many folks in this thread would not sell a firearm to me.

I have long hair, facial hair(often a 2-3 days shadow) Since I work in industry, my hands and fingernails are often dirty (it's pretty hard to always scruff ink and grease stains off.) For the same reason, if I am returning or going to work, I am wearing stained jeans and a dirt jacket. I also wear leather and black T-shirts.

Basing you judgments on appearances is simply ignorant.
You may laugh at me because I am different, I laugh at you because you are all the same
Being dirty from a day in the field or at work is entirely different from being filthy from living on the streets for a couple weeks. To say they are the same is an insult to working people.
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:27 PM   #44
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looking kinda funny isn't a disqualifier if you have an in-state driver's license and ccw permit. that along with references since all of my FTF with people I never met were from gun forums....
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Old January 19, 2014, 09:36 PM   #45
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OMG! I've seen people at gun ranges and gun shows many times that fit that description. It probably fits half of you that frequent this board If you feel that uncomfortable about it don't sell to him. He can go some where else and purchase a burner. Legally of course. I chuckled when I read the initial post. Add 46 years to his age and you have my long time hunting buddy and firearms mentor
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Old January 19, 2014, 10:39 PM   #46
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What I know about anyone in the public arena is based on what they show me. I won't refuse to sell someone a gun based solely on their appearance but it will be considered. By the way I have had long hair, rough beard, and a basic sense of fashion most of my life, still if I get a strange vibe from someone I will not sell anything, work with or for, or associate with that person. But that's just me.
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Old January 19, 2014, 11:17 PM   #47
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In the example given, I would have to talk to this person at least a little. If he has his mental facilities, is not on some sort of substance affecting his judgement, and he has the money, I would sell, but I would ask for an ID and I would ask specifically if he is legally allowed to own a firearm and did not have any kind of felony record. This is beyond what I would normally do with a FTF transaction and only done because I am uncomfortable.

If I am really uncomfortable but want to sell anyway, I would just go to a FFL dealer and pay to transfer fee personally.
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Old January 19, 2014, 11:53 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colbad View Post
I am curious how those who are advocating the sale based upon "rights" would feel if the "shady" individual came into your store of FTF wearing with pride his full "gang" colors or outlaw biker cut telling the world of his affiliation? Even if he does pass the NICS, you going to sell it to him.





Personally, I am with those who recognize his potential right to bear arms but my right to sell to who I want....FFL or not. Thoughts?





would you support a law that restricted gun rights based on dress, interest, or hobbies? What other measures should we ask Uncle Sam to put into law to deny gun sales?



That really old man, could have Alzheimer, better not sell to him. I don't think people with glasses should be allowed to own a gun since their eye sight is bad. I think you should meet a minimum income requirement also. A poor person might be tempted to use his gun to rob



Again, I respect everyone's right to do business with who ever you want to. I don't want to force business to do anything, but I think if you decide to become an FFL you need to respect the rights of consumers.



If you think a FFL should refuse based on looks, then you think all FFLs should. That means no gun for this person. No different than making it a law, the results are the same. I am against more gun control laws. Period.
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Old January 20, 2014, 12:01 AM   #49
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This conversation isn't about legislating anything other than the potentially FORCING someone to sell personal property to another individual that the seller does not want to do business with. To go from "would you say no to a buy request" to "would you support a law dictating who can or can't do business with" is so far apart that they don't even belong in the same thread.

When did it become a constitutional right to be able to buy anything from any person whether he wants to sell it to you or not?
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Old January 20, 2014, 02:03 AM   #50
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I try not to judge people based solely on their appearance. Some of the nicest people I've ever known looked a bit "sketchy" when I first met them and some of the most pitiful excuses for human beings I've ever had the misfortune of being acquainted with seemed quite respectable at first glance. That being said, in a private sale it would be a non-issue for me as it is my personal policy to only sell a gun on consignment through an FFL or to someone I know very, very well such as a family member or close friend. I simply do not trust my own judgment of character enough to pick the good and bad among strangers.

Now, if I were an FFL, I might refuse an otherwise legal sale, but not based on appearance alone unless said appearance was a blatant reference to something more sinister such as gang tattoos or clothing. A scruffy beard and black duster wouldn't stop me, as an FFL from selling a gun to someone who passed a NICS check, but racial slurs, signs of substance abuse, cognitive impairment, unsafe gun handling, or unusual aggressive behavior would stop a sale very quickly.
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