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Old January 18, 2014, 07:59 PM   #1
Nick_C_S
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Concealed Carry in Condition 3

After working toward it - and lots of waiting - for almost a year, I got my carry permit just over a month ago. While waiting, I had plenty of time to think it over. I decided that at first, while I'm getting used to carry, it would be safest to carry in condition 3 (full mag, no round in the chamber).

I have two carry semi-autos - in California, you can put up to three specific guns on your permit. One is a Kahr CW9 (9mm), and the other is a Glock 29SF (10mm). Neither gun as a trigger lock safety - like a 1911, or Baretta 92.

So while I am getting used to my various "choreographies," - holstering at home and in the car; locking in its under-seat car container when needed, taking it out, etc. You know, just getting used to doing all the things associated with its handling. I decided to do so in condition 3 - in case something in my handling routine would grab the trigger. I rack the slide - cocking the striker - then insert the mag. That way, if I do something wrong while handling, I'll hear the "click," telling me that maneuver is a no-no.

Well, I have never heard a click, but I still carry condition 3. The third gun I have on my permit is a revolver. I have no problem carrying it fully loaded and ready to go; and its discharging is just a trigger pull away - just like the semi-autos. But yet, I feel it's somehow different. (I'm a revolver guy.)

So here I am a month down the road, and the thought of one in the pipe with the striker cocked at all times just makes me nervy.

I'm not even sure if I have a question here. I guess I just want some thoughts and opinions on the subject from those who conceal carry.

Thanks.
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Old January 18, 2014, 08:20 PM   #2
Snyper
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Quote:
I just want some thoughts and opinions
I'd prefer to be less "safe" and more "prepared"

You may not have a free hand to rack a slide when you NEED to use your weapon
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Old January 18, 2014, 08:22 PM   #3
Ichiban
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IMHO this is just short of not carrying at all.

The likely scenarios for needing to use your firearm rarely include the time (and luxury) of being able to rack the slide. Most likely you will be under immense stress and your adrenalin level will be high, making routine tasks (racking the slide) difficult.

You may well need to fire when the gun has barely cleared the holster. And it is a mistake to think that you will have the use of your weak hand to manipulate the slide. It could well be injured or busy moving loved ones out of the way or trying to fend off the bad guy.

Condition 3 is going to get you hurt, again, IMHO.
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Old January 18, 2014, 08:29 PM   #4
TennJed
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Go ahead and "bite the bullet" and carry chambered. It is just an issue of comfort for you. You will not get comfortable carrying chambered in condition 3. The only way to get comfortable with it, is to do it.



You may find yourself surprised at how quickly you become comfortable
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Old January 18, 2014, 08:35 PM   #5
Dragline45
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There is nothing unsafe about carrying a gun with a round in the chamber, guns were meant to be carried loaded. It also makes no sense that you feel safe carrying a loaded revolver, but not a semi. If carrying a striker fired pistol with no safety loaded makes you feel uncomfortable, get a DAO or a DA/SA pistol since you seem to feel safer with a revolver. Actually, isn't your Kahr DAO? It should make you feel no more unsafe carrying the Kahr loaded as the revolver. I believe Kahr's also have a firing pin block.

If you are ever attacked, you would need both hands to chamber a round in your gun. Where as if you had a round already in the chamber, you could use your free hand to fend off the attacker and draw your pistol with the other. This is one of many reason why to never carry an unloaded gun.

Last edited by Dragline45; January 18, 2014 at 10:13 PM.
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Old January 18, 2014, 08:46 PM   #6
Willie Lowman
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Someone else's thoughts on one in the chamber or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMbIC0RPBRs

Colion says it better than I could.
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Old January 18, 2014, 08:50 PM   #7
Nick_C_S
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Quote:
It also makes no sense that you feel safe carrying a loaded revolver, but not a semi.
I know.

Quote:
Actually, isn't your Kahr DAO?
It is not. It has an internal striker. You must rack the slide to cock the striker. If you dry fire, you must rack the slide again to reset the striker.

Good posts everybody. I take "straight-talk" well. Keep 'em coming.
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Old January 18, 2014, 09:00 PM   #8
Nick_C_S
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Willie Lowman: Colion says it better than I could.
Great video Willie. Thanks. Like he said: carrying concealed is a journey. . . He also suggests to first carry (conditon 3) for a couple months to get used to CC . . . I think that's where I am right now.

He makes a lot of great points. I like the "high-power magnet" remark - that's how I feel sometimes. That was 2:48 that I really related to.

Thanks again.
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Old January 18, 2014, 09:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
I'm not even sure if I have a question here. I guess I just want some thoughts and opinions on the subject from those who conceal carry.
My carry holster (which covers the trigger and prevents the controls from being manipulated) can be removed from my belt with the gun still holstered. I consider that a critical safety feature.

I don't think it's a good idea to be drawing and holstering loaded guns except when the necessity to do so is critical (as in a self-defense situation) or in a location specifically set up to provide the adequate safety precautions necessary for such operations.
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Old January 18, 2014, 11:12 PM   #10
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My rule of thumb is... If the weapon is in a proper holster, then the weapon is in condition one. If the weapon is not in a holster then it's in condition four.
My Glock at my bed side is in a proper holster. If I have a weapon locked in my car it would be in a proper holster. If I just finished cleaning a weapon, it's in condition four. If you practice this religiously, you will be safer. Therefore, you will feel safer. Therefore you will have more confidence. As long as you never lose respect of the weapon you will do just fine. Getting good holsters is the key.
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Old January 19, 2014, 12:05 AM   #11
db4570
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I know exactly what the OP Nick is going through and I have no problem with his method.

I have been CCing for 25 years, revolvers until the last few years, but switching to autos I just don't like carrying chambered without a safety. I have DA/SA autos that I carry on my hip chambered with the safety on, and I'm comfortable with that. But my EDC carry is a Ruger LCP without a safety. I simply don't like carrying it chambered, especially in its pocket holster which always seems to have the gun pointing in a really scary direction, like at some kid in a restaurant. I know it's not going to spontaneously go off, but it spooks me just the same.

Since I know it is impossible for a properly holstered gun to fire, and I never hear of innocent bystanders being shot with guns that spontaneously went off with one in the chamber, I don't have a problem with people carrying that way. But I am really worn out with comments like:

Quote:
I'd prefer to be less "safe" and more "prepared"
Not me. I'd rather be safe first. I consider this attitude to be irresponsible.

Or:

Quote:
IMHO this is just short of not carrying at all.
I hear this a lot. What nonsense. I never aspired to be some sort of quick-draw gunfighter. So to claim that you've got to be locked and loaded or you're not prepared is ridiculous. That's like saying if you carry your gun in a holster rather than constantly brandishing it and sweeping the area with it, that you're unprepared. Come on. Yes, if you have to rack the slide, you are a little less prepared. A LITTLE. But you're still 50 times more prepared than someone who is unarmed.

I admire Nick for taking the rules of gun safety to heart. I have no problem with he or I being a little squeamish about the barrel of a gun being pointed at another innocent human being.

A little more perspective and a little less armchair vigilante, please.

David
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Old January 19, 2014, 01:28 AM   #12
dakota.potts
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When I carry my gun (not many chances I get to do that), it's in a quality holster in Condition... 0? It's got a full 16 + 1 magazine on the half-cock notch and there's no manual safety on the gun.

I want a gun that's going to go off when I pick it up and a gun that I will expect to go off when I pull the trigger. No "it won't go off because the safety is on" or "It won't go off because my chamber is empty".

I know the gun's loaded and ready to shoot at all times and I treat all guns that way.

You definitely are hyper aware of it carrying that way. The first couple times I did it were very scary, but it's mostly a mental thing.

When it rides in the car with me it goes the same way. In Florida, a gun in your car has to be "securely encased" in a closed container, and since it won't fit in the glove box or center console, it has to be in its hard case. It takes me long enough to open that up that I don't want to also have to chamber it if I need it.

But it's your gun and your choice.
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Old January 19, 2014, 01:52 AM   #13
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Colion says it better than I could.
+1.

BTDT.


...and if you get your google fu on, you can find my arguments for Condition 3 carry of a 1911 anihiliated by Lady Tam, and others ..... most damning was a pic of a coral encrusted 1911 blown off WWII landing craft ..... recovered off the sea floor 50+ years later, still loaded, still cocked and locked.
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Old January 19, 2014, 03:06 AM   #14
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IMHO you just need the right gear to get you where you need to be.Practicing the trigger finger straight grab for anyone new to carrying or carrying a Da or striker fired pistol with no manual safety will eventually gain confidence but one holster I found helps. A Serpa retention holster http://www.opticsplanet.com/blackhaw...140119075109:s
It forces you to unlock the pistol and puts your finger in the proper grab position from the get go, The holster also cover the trigger when it is in it. IT should give you confidence by helping to keep your finger off the trigger and in proper form from the get go.

Pro's to note : keeps your finger pointed right
Retention to prevent an easy grab from someone else

Cons: Must get your finger on the button for smooth retrieval.
In all honesty it feels more natural than any I have ever used by the way the groove for the release feels like it was made for your hand , finger and proper grab.
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Old January 19, 2014, 07:34 AM   #15
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I would say carry it the way you feel comfortable with, knowing that carrying in con 3 will take a bit longer to get the firearm ready. After all you are the one carrying it, and its you that will have to face the coincidences of your decision good or bad.
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Old January 19, 2014, 07:58 AM   #16
Mobuck
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If you're not "comfortable enough" to carry your gun with a loaded chamber, you shouldn't be carrying it at all.
A walking stick is more suitable than an unloaded gun.
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:28 AM   #17
manta49
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Quote:
If you're not "comfortable enough" to carry your gun with a loaded chamber, you shouldn't be carrying it at all.
A walking stick is more suitable than an unloaded gun.
I would disagree, As I said its up to you what way you carry your firearm. If posts are not constructive you are better ignoring them.

Quote:
A walking stick is more suitable than an unloaded gun
American soldiers have to carry their firearms in con 3 when on base. As you think they are as much use as a walking stick in that condition , should they just leave them in the armoury and carry walking sticks.

Last edited by manta49; January 19, 2014 at 08:39 AM.
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:35 AM   #18
Jim243
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Quote:
If you're not "comfortable enough" to carry your gun with a loaded chamber, you shouldn't be carrying it at all.
A walking stick is more suitable than an unloaded gun.
If the OP is more comfortable caring in condition 3 then there is nothing wrong with that. He has a firearm available should one be needed (better than leaving it in the car). The mentality of always being ready for a gun fight is one of the reasons the anti's think we should be in straight jackets instead of caring weapons on the street. The last time I looked Dodge City was civilized and strapping on a six shooter was not a requirement for picking up a gallon of milk.

Should I find myself going into an area that might be of some risk, loading a round into the chamber would be no problem at all, but until then condition 3 might give some more peace of mind.

I would rather have a gun to defend myself with that can be loaded in less than one second, than be known as looking for a gun fight the second I walk out the door.

Just my view.
Jim
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:43 AM   #19
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I understand your unease because it is new to you but just want to agree with those who say carry with one in the chamber. There's nothing at all unsafe about that. I've carried for over 30 yrs...first with a revolver (round under the firing pin) and then with semi autos and always a round in the chamber. Only pistols we carried that even had a safety/decocker were Berettas and we even carried them safety off. We went to Glocks and now M&P. Wear it in a proper holster and always....Just keep your finger off the trigger!
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:49 AM   #20
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I hear this from folks new to carrying, that they're uncomfortable with some aspect of it. It's a big decision to decide to carry, and the only thing that will make you comfortable is carrying.

I remember the first time I strapped a gun, some 30-odd years ago, with the intent to step into public with a firearm. I obsessed about all the little details, considered all the ramifications, went through the mental drills, and when I actually put the gun on my hip and walked out into public I thought that everyone I passed was looking for the gun. They weren't. Most people are oblivious.

I also felt like a huge weight was hanging at 4:00, behind my hip. Gradually, I became used to the gun on my hip, didn't think about it so much, then one day I realized that I had carried all day and didn't think about it at all. Now, it's just another part of my wardrobe, just like putting on socks and shoes. If I go out, I'm strapped.

Most people, and by that, I mean 99.5% of the people I encounter in my day-to-day, are oblivious to others around them. No situational awareness at all. They are used to seeing other people with pouches on their belts, carrying electronic devices, so when they see a bulge, they think it's a cell phone. Their rational mind dismisses it immediately. Plus, those oblivious folks are more concerned with their own activities than they are with mine, or they're texting, or listening to music, they're not really there (mentally) at all.

There's nothing wrong with carrying a revolver. In fact, my preferred carry piece is a Smith model 38, dropped in my pocket. No one sees it there. If they notice a bulge in my pocket, they think that the unobtrusive old bald guy is carrying normal pocket clutter, when in fact there is nothing in that pocket but a little revolver.

I applaud your decision to carry, and I applaud your questions, it shows that you have an active mind. Get training, get comfortable with your preferred methods, and most importantly, get the peace of mind that comes with informed practices. This isn't a one-size-fits-all scenario. You've got to be comfortable about how you carry.
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Old January 19, 2014, 09:23 AM   #21
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Quote:
If the OP is more comfortable caring in condition 3 then there is nothing wrong with that. He has a firearm available should one be needed (better than leaving it in the car). The mentality of always being ready for a gun fight is one of the reasons the anti's think we should be in straight jackets instead of caring weapons on the street. The last time I looked Dodge City was civilized and strapping on a six shooter was not a requirement for picking up a gallon of milk.

Should I find myself going into an area that might be of some risk, loading a round into the chamber would be no problem at all, but until then condition 3 might give some more peace of mind.

I would rather have a gun to defend myself with that can be loaded in less than one second, than be known as looking for a gun fight the second I walk out the door.
What, so everybody that carries with a round chambered is some kind of blood thirsty nut case? Or is it everyone that carries in general? The antis don't really believe in the concept of self defense at all, so why should we care what they think anyway?

If you chamber a round as you enter an area "that might be of some risk", might that not draw a bit of attention?

As for the OP, I suspect that once he has been carrying for a while and becomes more familiar/comfortable with his weapons, carrying fully loaded won't be an issue. As long as you handle your gun safely (which you should do in any condition), there is no advantage to carrying with an empty chamber.
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Old January 19, 2014, 09:39 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JN01
If you chamber a round as you enter an area "that might be of some risk", might that not draw a bit of attention?
If I think I'm going to an area where I'll need a firearm (unless it's my deer stand), I'm not going at all. I carry a firearm for those perfectly safe places like shopping centers, churches, and large parking lots. I don't go to places where I might need a firearm. (snarky, I know, but I don't go to places that are known for disruptive behavior.)
Quote:
As for the OP, I suspect that once he has been carrying for a while and becomes more familiar/comfortable with his weapons, carrying fully loaded won't be an issue.
My point entirely.
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Old January 19, 2014, 10:45 AM   #23
Dragline45
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The mentality of always being ready for a gun fight is one of the reasons the anti's think we should be in straight jackets instead of caring weapons on the street.
And you are part of that problem, congratulations. Instead of leveling with these ignorant fools, you are just further supporting their misguided logic.

I don't carry a gun because I think I will be engaged in a gunfight. I am far more concerned with someone pulling a knife, a blunt object, or a group of thugs surrounding and outnumbering me. I know several people who were attacked and beaten severely by groups of 2 or more people. One of my sisters best friends was attacked by a group of 3 drunk college kids who ended up smashing his face repeatedly into concrete stairs and he needed major facial reconstruction surgery and had swelling in the brain.

Quote:
The last time I looked Dodge City was civilized and strapping on a six shooter was not a requirement for picking up a gallon of milk
Yeah because last year an elementary school full of young children was attacked by maniac, real civilized.

Because just last year a movie theater full of people out to enjoy themselves was attacked by another maniac, as well as a shopping mall.

Because just last year two crazed brothers detonated IED's at the Boston Marathon, then proceeded to drive to my hometown, shoot it out with police rittling the neighborhood with bullet holes, detonating IED's a block away from my house, and turned my town into a war zone. Again, real civilized society we live in.

Quote:
I would rather have a gun to defend myself with that can be loaded in less than one second, than be known as looking for a gun fight the second I walk out the door.
I am sorry that you are so self conscious about what people think about you that you are willing to put your own safety at risk. Also I don't think anyone on here is "looking" for a gun fight. I think we could all live our lives happily never having to use our guns in self defense. Thanks for further vilifying us in the gun community who choose to have the means to defend ourselves.

.

Last edited by Dragline45; January 19, 2014 at 11:03 AM.
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Old January 19, 2014, 10:57 AM   #24
Jim243
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What, so everybody that carries with a round chambered is some kind of blood thirsty nut case?
I think you missed the point. He should carry whichever way makes him more comfortable, but he should carry.

No, I do not think everyone is a nut case, but if you would care to lay down on the couch and tell me about your childhood we can find out. (LOLOLOL)

Now that is a joke that you left yourself open to. But, I would have concern about anyone that has to attack someone else that has a difference of opinion than their's and if they should be carrying. (And I am not laughing about that!!)

Jim
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Old January 19, 2014, 11:34 AM   #25
Jim Watson
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What the OP does not mention is how much thought and effort he puts into making the gun ready to shoot and getting off a shot or shots with the minimum delay. Every physically possible condition of readiness has been used by somebody at some time. Jeff Cooper and Massad Ayoob have done stuff that might surprise the enthusiast. You should do what you are comfortable with but it should also be something that you are GOOD at.

If I were afraid of an auto that was farther away from firing than a click of a safety and a crisp trigger pull or a long DA-ish trigger pull, I would stick to revolvers. But that is ME and NOW. To the horror of most Internet Experts, I once carried in Condition 2. I still have a Commander fitted with a spur hammer for the purpose. I don't use it that way any more, but I have different attitudes and skills than I used to.
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