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Old May 20, 2014, 05:44 PM   #1
Mokumbear
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Check out this video while it's still up...

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/ne...boynton/nfzKF/


Surprising that thugs would prey on a larger, more aggressive guy.
Funny that head thug's mom turned him in!
Also funny he tripped backwards over the motorcycle in the commission of this crime.

Considering that Florida has a stand your ground law, I think he
would have been within his rights to draw on these thugs.
Hopefully they would flee, but if they continued their assault I think
he would be within his rights to shoot.

I think he made a mistake by not being armed and by being too
complacent about these thugs closing in on him and getting behind him.

Interestingly enough, about 2 weeks ago a gun magazine recommended
keeping an eye on your fuel so you would not have to stop late
at night at a gas station in a fringe area.

Even though there is a lot of new upscale development in the area,
it's near a bad neighborhood and I don't even feel comfortable
being there during the day.

Your thoughts?
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Old May 20, 2014, 06:06 PM   #2
SpareMag
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Three against one -not good odds even if you do have a gat.

IMHO, he was correct in trying to get away. Barring actual assault with a weapon, armed response is a very two-edged strategy.
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Old May 20, 2014, 06:07 PM   #3
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Looked like a good time to call 911 and retreat. The motorcyclist did OK, though, improvising a weapon from the windshield washing tool. If his assailants had been armed with a gun or a knife he might not have fared as well, but he used an effective amount of force to keep them off him and he got out of it with only minor injury. That is a situation that could have turned out a lot worse if he hadn't been thinking and reacting.

Heck, for all I know he might have been carrying and chose to respond in a more restrained manner than gunfire.
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Old May 20, 2014, 06:28 PM   #4
Mokumbear
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Interesting feedback...

IMHO, the motorcyclist was in imminent danger of serious physical harm.

I would have drawn.

Considering Florida's stand your ground law, anyone agree with me?

Me against some 5 aggressive thugs, IMHO, qualifies as an imminent threat of
serious physical danger.

BTW, Florida's stand your ground law specifically does not require you
to retreat from a place you have a lawful right to be.
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Old May 20, 2014, 07:29 PM   #5
dajowi
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The motorcyclist had video camera footage to back up any claims he made to his being in peril by the thugs. However, it seems to me that simply walking back into the "store" would have been a good option rather than facing off with them.
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Old May 20, 2014, 11:59 PM   #6
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You can tell he was already nervous when he walked into the store. He should have just kept going. That was his first major mistake.

His second major mistake was when he exited the store the first time. He should have been ready to go when he hit the door and should have immediately left. He could have gotten on his bike and been gone in just a few seconds. Instead he screwed around for about half a minute instead of getting out of there.

Going back into the store was smart. They had surrounded him and made it clear that he was prey by putting their hands on him and probably verbally as well.

His third major mistake was not staying in the store until the assailants had either completely left or until the authorities came.

Having a firearm might have changed the outcome, but he had three opportunities to get out of the situation safely and screwed them all up royally. I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt by saying that even though he made all the wrong decisions without a firearm, he would have done better with his decision making had he been carrying.

I'll move this to Tactics & Training, but it may not stay open long given that it's a bit of a stretch to call this firearms related.
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Old May 21, 2014, 09:11 AM   #7
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Anyone recall "the seven P's"

Quote:
Your thoughts?
Late night gas stops are too often risky business. Especially in a sketchy location.

I like to fill up in the morning, when the lowlives aren't active. Less traffic, lower temps, no lines at the gas pumps. All upside.
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Old May 21, 2014, 09:55 AM   #8
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokumbear
BTW, Florida's stand your ground law specifically does not require you
to retreat from a place you have a lawful right to be.
Legal does not mean best, or even logical, course of action.

Safe retreat wins every time.
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Old May 21, 2014, 10:56 AM   #9
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Speaking as one who has been robbed and mugged BEFORE Texas had CCW I can relate to what transpired.
That is why I carry a gun today.
I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

In this situation when he went into the store he should have called 911 and not gone back outside until the cops showed up.
Although once they dumped the bike he has a right to protect his property.
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Old May 21, 2014, 11:25 AM   #10
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Frankly, he was stupid to have stayed outside with those thugs surrounding him. He should have gone inside and dialed 911 before then. I can't say what I would have done had they been tearing up my expensive property though. I hate thugs and bullies so I probably would have lost my cool. If I felt surrounded with no escape then I'm sure I would have drawn.
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Old May 21, 2014, 05:17 PM   #11
Mokumbear
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Interesting comments...

I think this thread absolutely is relevant to firearms.
It gives you a scenario and lets you think about how you would respond.

I initially thought about going into the store and calling 911.
Unfortunately, predators like this probably have no regard for
his being in the store or not. They might continue their assault in the store.
They might possibly know the clerk and realize he won't shoot them or interfere.

I agree that getting them to flee without needing to fire a shot would be
ideal but you are not dealing with predictable, normal people.
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Old May 21, 2014, 06:22 PM   #12
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I don't believe that we should disregard an apparently more attractive option because of the possibility that it might not be as attractive as it appears or that it might end up with the same final result.

You have to try. If an apparent escape is available, you should make use of it. If the BGs press the attack and you end up shooting someone anyway, that's their doing.

You do your best to deescalate/escape/evade. The actions of the other party are their responsibility.

If I ever have to shoot somebody (God forbid), I want every witness telling the police "That guy did everything he could to try to escape, the other guy forced him to shoot."
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Old May 21, 2014, 06:31 PM   #13
raimius
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Would it have been legal to use deadly force to defend himself? Maybe. If he could articulate that the group of men had a large advantage and were threatening him with grievous injury/death, and the jury/DA believed him, then he would be all right, legally.

The big thing to me is that he appeared not to notice the predatory circling of 4 people around him...or at least he took no visible action to counter it. Either stay inside and use the building to keep the threat away from/in front of you, or EXIT IMMEDIATELY! He could have easily been hit/stabbed/shot from behind and would have never seen it coming. When 4 people surround you, you are in a BAD position. So, AVOID THAT!
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Old May 21, 2014, 07:22 PM   #14
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I agree it seems he had no situational awareness.
If he had gone in the store and they followed and continued the pursuit/ attack then he would have tried to flee and deadly force was his last option.
This would have been easily a justified shooting IMO.
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Old May 22, 2014, 12:06 PM   #15
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Don't think for one second that guy didn't see a problem coming. He was just nonchalantly "pretending" not to notice and "hoping" they'd leave him (and his bike) alone if he didn't show any reaction to it.
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Old May 22, 2014, 02:08 PM   #16
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Yeah West Palm Beach definitely has it sketchy areas. This is only 30 minutes away from me (Broward) and there is plenty of areas like that here. I guess best bet to avoid those areas in general, and particularly alone and at night.

I believe was definitely a better way to handle the situation but you never know what you are going to to until you are in that situation. I do agree with trying to avoid the threat when/if possible before turning into a court case. But at the end of the day if my life is in danger its me or them.
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Old May 22, 2014, 02:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Surprising that thugs would prey on a larger, more aggressive guy.
Larger than what? He certainly was not more aggressive. As noted, they had #s on him.

Quote:
I think he made a mistake by not being armed and by being too
complacent about these thugs closing in on him and getting behind him.
99% of the population isn't armed. Lots of people own guns and have permits, but don't actually carry. Besides, how do you know he wasn't armed? Just because he didn't draw?

Funny how we know they are "thugs" after the fact.

Quote:
Interestingly enough, about 2 weeks ago a gun magazine recommended
keeping an eye on your fuel so you would not have to stop late
at night at a gas station in a fringe area.
He wasn't stopping for gas. Fringe area? That is very relative. That may be the motorcyclist's home.

Quote:
Even though there is a lot of new upscale development in the area,
it's near a bad neighborhood and I don't even feel comfortable
being there during the day.
Bad things happen in good neighborhoods all the time. Good things happen in bad neighborhoods.
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Old May 22, 2014, 04:57 PM   #18
dayman
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Quote:
I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Both seem like pretty poor options.
Personally, I'd rather make it home for dinner.

I don't see how drawing a gun would have made the situation any better, and could have very likely escalated it to something far worse.

Audio would be helpful (we don't know what was being said in either direction), but the 3 aggressors appear behavior seems more like "inhebriated a-holery" than a determined attack.

Criminal? Yes.
Deserving of death? Hardly.


I'm certainly not saying that it was his fault, but he did make a lot of bad decisions, and missed some pretty clear opportunities to disengage. So, I kind of hope he doesn't carry a gun.
People who make bad decisions and carry guns usually wind up making trouble for the rest of us.
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Old May 23, 2014, 04:24 PM   #19
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How typical is this crap? Trouble making thugs, just LOOKING for something to happen...Yes...the guy should have got the hell out of there ASAP...carrying would certainly have helped in this situation. And the whole thing on film....No contest...
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Old May 24, 2014, 08:04 AM   #20
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The riders entire demeanor speaks volumes about him and, his attitude;

1. No helmet (Though legal, shows a disregard for his own safety)
2. Khakis (again, un-prepared for riding )
3. Soft shoes ( ditto )
4. Situational awareness (he appears to know he's in a sketchy area and ignores his gut )
5. Did not secure his scoot ( if the fork lock had been engaged, the guy would likely have not been able to turn over the cycle )

Most criminals are very good at sizing people up based on their first impressions, this guy was practically screaming the fact that he was a "soft target"

I can guarantee that if you touch my scoot, whether I'm armed or not, you will see what an "aggressive" person looks like. Around here, that's the same as fondling my ol' Lady, neither will be tolerated.
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Old May 24, 2014, 12:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Around here, that's the same as fondling my ol' Lady, neither will be tolerated.
Just in case this isn't hyperbole/exaggeration, I'll point out that I'm not aware of anywhere that fondling a person without their consent (sexual battery) would be considered the same as touching someone's vehicle without permission. If a vehicle owner were to respond to someone touching their vehicle as if the offender had committed sexual battery the vehicle owner would most likely be committing an offense as serious, or perhaps more serious than sexual battery.
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Old May 25, 2014, 11:54 AM   #22
OuTcAsT
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JohnKSa Wrote;
Quote:
Just in case this isn't hyperbole/exaggeration,

Well, it is and, it isn't. While legally there is no comparison between the two. To a certain subset, "culturally" they carry the same, or a very similar weight.

Touch either one and , in the biker community, you're going to make someone extremely upset.

Quote:
If a vehicle owner were to respond to someone touching their vehicle as if the offender had committed sexual battery the vehicle owner would most likely be committing an offense as serious, or perhaps more serious than sexual battery.
My suggestion is not to engage in either offense.
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Old May 25, 2014, 04:36 PM   #23
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Quote:
The riders entire demeanor speaks volumes about him and, his attitude;

1. No helmet (Though legal, shows a disregard for his own safety)
2. Khakis (again, un-prepared for riding )
3. Soft shoes ( ditto )
So leathers, boots, and a helmet and the bandits would have stayed away. Naw.

Quote:
4. Situational awareness (he appears to know he's in a sketchy area and ignores his gut )
People who live in "sketchy" areas and consider it to be their home are not fearful of the area like outsiders. How do you know this isn't the guy's home turf?

Quote:
5. Did not secure his scoot ( if the fork lock had been engaged, the guy would likely have not been able to turn over the cycle )
Yeah, he would. He just would have turned it over the other direction. Fork locks just lock the forks. They are not active vertical stabilization devices to prevent toppling.

Quote:
My suggestion is not to engage in either offense.
And yet you postured and said you would.
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Old May 27, 2014, 07:35 AM   #24
OuTcAsT
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Quote:
So leathers, boots, and a helmet and the bandits would have stayed away. Naw.
Not what I said at all, I pointed out that criminals look for people who "stand out" and are "out of the ordinary" He is obviously ill prepared for the activity, and thus "stands out". As an aside, , had he been wearing the gear, he would certainly have been better protected from a beating.

Quote:
People who live in "sketchy" areas and consider it to be their home are not fearful of the area like outsiders. How do you know this isn't the guy's home turf?
People who live in such areas also know where frequently dangerous areas are and avoid them. As for whether this is his "home turf" I have no idea, it is conjecture, same as yours.

Quote:
Fork locks just lock the forks. They are not active vertical stabilization devices to prevent toppling.
Hi cycle has been customized a great deal so, it is hard to say whether his is capable of locking however, on most cruisers, when the forks are locked in the proper position, it is precisely a stabilization device ( mine locks my jiffy stand as well ) YMMV

Quote:
And yet you postured and said you would.
I said if you touch my Wife, or my scoot, there will be trouble, that's a fact.
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Old May 28, 2014, 10:22 PM   #25
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I read the story, and while I agree waiting in the store and calling the police was definitely the best option, I thought the entire point of carrying a weapon was to avoid being a victim!

With a custom bike, we're talking felony money levels of destruction of property. Plus, I'm curious what police response times are in a neighborhood like that.

When you need gas, you need gas. Legally being in front of an open business that you are patronizing is no place to be assaulted and have your property destroyed. I can't think of any reason this victim (if he had a carry) shouldn't have defended himself. These are clearly men who have made a life of illegal activity (by their first question) and wanton disregard for our societies social contract---why pay to keep them in jail when a dirt nap for them and some legal fees (even though it's all on video) would have ACTUALLY FIXED THE PROBLEM?

That guy whose mother turned him in; what career do you think he will return to after his relatively short jail time? Bad men prevail when good men fail to act!!!
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