The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old January 18, 2014, 02:53 PM   #51
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,261
Quote:
There is no irony there. You call the police about concern that a loved one will harm themselves (as they are apparently mentally unstable and cannot be trusted to value life) and then the loved one moves aggressively against the cops that you called to take your place to deal with the situation. If you call and have the cops put into danger, it should be no surprise that they will defend themselves.
I don't think many are saying that the officer had not the right to lawful shoot when he did. Just that it could have being handled differently. But if you can't see the irony in what happened . Its a bit like someone ringing for an ambulance and it driving over and killing you when it arrived.
manta49 is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 03:19 PM   #52
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,424
Quote:
Just that it could have being handled differently. But if you can't see the irony in what happened . Its a bit like someone ringing for an ambulance and it driving over and killing you when it arrived.
Its like the ambulance driving over and killing you when you attacked it, you mean. Funny how you keep leaving out the aggression on the part of the guy with the knife.

Could have been handled differently? No situation ever occurred that could not have been handled differently. Not all of the outcomes would have been as good for the officers either.

The cops were called and the guy moved aggressively against them with lethal implements despite repeated and lawful commands by the cops to drop the knives. At that point, it is a little late to be singing Kumbaya.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 03:40 PM   #53
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,261
Quote:
The cops were called and the guy moved aggressively against them with lethal implements despite repeated and lawful commands by the cops to drop the knives. At that point, it is a little late to be singing Kumbaya
You are preaching to the converted, I have already said that in the situation the officer got himself into, it looked like he had the right to shoot.

Quote:
The cops were called and the guy moved aggressively
Could you not argue that the officer moved aggressively against him, entering his house weapon drawn.
manta49 is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 07:49 PM   #54
Pezo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2005
Location: Macomb, Mich
Posts: 632
Read the commentary after that story ) the people who dis agreed with the officer using his firearm to stop a NUTJOB from approaching him threatening with a knife! Good shooting officer. You did a fine job of protecting the law abiding sane public and yourself. Oh, and by the way thank you for stopping bad elements in the gene pool. Great outcome if you ask me.
Pezo is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 07:53 PM   #55
Pezo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2005
Location: Macomb, Mich
Posts: 632
"That guy didn't need to wind up dead". News flash. Pull a knife on another person violently and expect to wind up dead. Common sense.

Last edited by Vanya; January 21, 2014 at 10:20 AM. Reason: no need to inject politics into this.
Pezo is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 08:01 PM   #56
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 247
I know the officer doesnt have a legal duty to retreat but what about a moral duty? I will acknowledge knife fighters can move and kill fast so the shooting was required, but what about a moral duty to retreat out of the house?

There is a video on the internet of a knife fighter killing some officers down in Central America. People with knives can move very fast so if they get within some odd feet you must fire.
johnelmore is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 08:27 PM   #57
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,691
Quote:
You are preaching to the converted, I have already said that in the situation the officer got himself into, it looked like he had the right to shoot.
You don't sound convinced. The officer did not "get himself" into anything. He was called into a situation and had a duty to respond.

Quote:
I know the officer doesnt have a legal duty to retreat but what about a moral duty?
No. The officer has every right to protect himself from an armed violent aggressor.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 09:09 PM   #58
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 336
Quote:
I know the officer doesnt have a legal duty to retreat but what about a moral duty? I will acknowledge knife fighters can move and kill fast so the shooting was required, but what about a moral duty to retreat out of the house?
Please detail the nature of a "moral duty to retreat".
zombietactics is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 09:18 PM   #59
towboat-er
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2011
Posts: 146
It could have been handled differently.

The man would only talk to one of their dispatchers. By 10:30 p.m. officers decided to leave the area. They say the man was not threatening anyone and they didn't want to "force his hand" and cause any other problems

http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/M...l?device=phone
towboat-er is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 11:10 PM   #60
Ton
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2014
Posts: 7
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2014/0...-shooting.html

http://www.krem.com/video/featured-v...240318431.html

Not that it really matters, but apparently Eric had clipped a power pole, so..... not a serious accident, probably no shock.

Also, it appears he had spent time in jail before. Also, the prosecuting attorney, who I'm sure has a lot more background info than we do, believed that suicide by police was his intention.

Could this have played out differently? Absolutely. As somebody pointed out, EVERY situation that has ever occurred could have played out differently. The police have to make split second decisions every day and hope for the best possible outcome. Being that the officer in question was a 6 year veteran, I'm sure this wasn't the first time he had dealt with a situation like this, and his tactics have obviously worked in the past. He had no way of knowing that Eric was going to do what he did. If I were in his shoes, I feel that the fact that the accident was minor and that the friend was calm would serve to downplay my belief that his threats of self-harm were credible. Of course, it's not up to the officer to determine whether a suicide threat is credible. He proceeded with a level of caution that he deemed appropriate for the situation. I believe the officer did exactly what he was trained to do, and the bottom line is that he still went home at the end of that shift.

My personal belief is that the headline was right. It was suicide by police. That belief mostly stems from the slow but steady pace of Eric's advance. Had he been bent on harming the officer, I believe he would have advanced much faster. Had he not wanted to be shot, I believe he would have stopped his advance, and complied with the officer. But instead he marched toward him like something out of the walking dead, and didn't give the officer any choice.

One last note: Tasers, OC Spray, etc. are less lethal weapons that an officer has available to him/her. Officers are typically trained to respond to aggression/resistance with a level of force that is one step higher than the level of force being used/threatened by the perpetrator. Example: Perp pushes officer, officer punches perp. Perp punches officer, Officer maces perp. This means that less lethal weapons are for officers to respond to non or less lethal threats or assaults. Any DEADLY assault or threat, must be met by the officer with deadly force. This is to minimize the chance of the officer ending his shift in a body bag. It's not that a taser or mace wouldn't have worked. They probably would have, we'll never know. The problem is that if the officer had responded with one of those tools and found it to be ineffective on Eric, he would have been in a world of trouble, and could very well have been killed. And if that had happened, the only point made in this thread would have been that the officer should have shot him when he advanced with a knife.

These are all just my personal beliefs based off of what I know, and could very well be flawed. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.
Ton is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 12:17 AM   #61
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,193
Ton wrote;
Quote:
The problem is that if the officer had responded with one of those tools and found it to be ineffective on Eric, he would have been in a world of trouble, and could very well have been killed.

This is the very reason for a "backup" officer, it leaves you options. I stand by my belief that this was not a "suicide" but, a poorly executed attempt to stop a suicide at gunpoint.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -

Last edited by OuTcAsT; January 19, 2014 at 12:26 AM.
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 12:54 AM   #62
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Hollywood myths, unrealistic conditions.....

I think some forum members & members of the general public have a misconception of who or what sworn US law enforcement officers are.
Many grew up with the "Officer Friendly" mindset or the policeman is my pal attitude.
They assume every LE officer who shows up is going to resolve any dispute exactly how they want or do exactly what they say.wrong

Hollywood has a lot to.do with it too. Real cops have a tough job & must react quickly.

CF
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 01:54 AM   #63
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,152
The police are supposed to respond to a person in peril, even if that person is harming themselves. Imagine it plays out the other way: The cop waits around for 10 minutes to get negotiators or some kind of mental help on the scene, and by the time they get there the man is already dead.

I have read on these forums that an officer can respond with less-lethal force only at their discretion and with another officer to support them with lethal force.

I absolutely think the officer was justified. Yes, he ended up forcing the man's hand. But what else do you do when you've got someone threatening themselves with a knife and you have a duty to get them out of it? He gave the man many opportunities to respond verbally, to talk, to even make the officer aware of his presence.

A man with a knife can cover a lot of ground quickly. If he had stayed there with the knife, I might even agree that the shooting wasn't justified. But the first step towards the officer already broke that line, and I'm amazed the officer held out as long as he did. Frankly, there was a long, tense second and a half or so after the point where I felt I would have shot (knowing that nothing ever plays out like it does in your head) where the officer continued backing up and giving verbal warnings past the point of what I felt was reasonable and safe.

To suggest that he should have used a Taser or OC Spray? Laughable. Tasers have a known possibility to fail altogether as both darts must land and even then sometimes there are freak reasons they don't work. I know you can continue fighting and find a target after being sprayed with OC because there are training programs for government agencies (including FWC in Florida) where you must be pepper sprayed and then spar with an opponent, including simulated edged weapons, and they can do it. It says nothing of an incensed, adrenaline-high person already on the edge who feels they have nothing to lose.

To shoot at the legs is also a losing prospect. People can and will sprint and lunge with shattered kneedcaps. In my opinion, the only time a leg shot will stop somebody is when they lose their will to go on, or maybe if the leg is taken completely off. The human body has the strength to bring itself 15 feet forward even after major structural damage.

Somebody needs to bring up the video of the man in Honduras who killed 4 cops with a knife. There, they are expected to do what many say here: if there is a knife, they may only use a contact weapon as force. They try to take the knife away with a stick and he charges them. Each of them over 30 feet apart, he first kills holding an AK-47 and then kills 3 more who are actively firing handguns at him before he is downed. All with a standard kitchen knife and lots of running. It was a 15-20 second incident. I don't know about you, but I don't want to go 15 seconds with an unstable person with a knife in close quarters.
__________________
For firearms news and discussion from a fellow TFL member, visit shootersreportblog.wordpress.com. If you have a suggestion or would like to comment or contribute, I welcome private messages!

The Shooter's Report is also on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theshootersreport
dakota.potts is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 02:51 AM   #64
DoubleDeuce 1
Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2013
Posts: 75
Having been in situations like that as well as many others, the police officer did just fine in my opinion. He did not have the luxury to deep think things as the situation was unfolding. Regarding the remark about his being aggressive by having his weapon drawn as he moved into the house... how utterly, stupidly ignorant. Is it aggressive to move through a building in search of a burglar with your weapon drawn? It is just plain common sense and self preservation.

The officer calling out in a loud voice toward the end of the video I believe was to make certain that he was heard plainly by everyone around. People tend to have a selective memory when dollar signs start popping up, or don't like the police. It leaves no doubt that he gave clear, loud commands. I also believe the suspect in this incident knew exactly what he was doing.

Good job. Good clean shooting.
DoubleDeuce 1 is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 03:01 AM   #65
JD0x0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2013
Posts: 833
From the video, I see nothing wrong with the officer's actions. This is coming from someone who had a friend, that died in a very similar situation. He was running around jumping on cars. Had the police called him and they found him at his house. He was cornered in his room by an officer, with his mother at home. He then came out with a knife in each hand, and was shot 9 times by a single officer on scene. An off duty officer heard the shots, came running with a shotgun, and was then shot in the head, by the same officer. I think in my friend's case the officer was not prepared for what he responded to, panicked and took the lives of two people, which could have been avoided. Unfortunately there was no video to see what actually happened.
JD0x0 is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 03:52 AM   #66
Stiofan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2006
Location: Panhandle, Idaho
Posts: 691
I live in the town next to Coeur D'Alene. It's a small community. The investigating district attorney was from a neighbouring county to the north, it was his opinion this was suicide by cop and that's why all the news sources picked that up. This happened last fall. It was investigated by the state police.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/Idaho-polic...238726941.html

We have two police departments here, Post Falls and Coeur D'Alene cities, the other towns contract with Kootenai County Sheriff. Together, including the Sheriff, they may have one police shooting every five years or so. Twenty minutes west in Spokane they have them about every month, but there are a quarter million folks there. The usual drug, alcohol and domestic problems going on here but they almost always end better than this, so these guys do a pretty good job day in and day out. That's saying a lot, this is north Idaho, big gun culture and everyone carries it seems.
Stiofan is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 06:08 AM   #67
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,261
Quote:
The cop waits around for 10 minutes to get negotiators or some kind of mental help on the scene, and by the time they get there the man is already dead
Or instead of waiting in case the individual harms themselves , go in and shoot them dead. That makes sense.

Quote:
Read the commentary after that story ) the people who dis agreed with the officer using his firearm to stop a NUTJOB from approaching him threatening with a knife! Good shooting officer. You did a fine job of protecting the law abiding sane public and yourself. Oh, and by the way thank you for stopping bad elements in the gene pool. Great outcome if you ask me
Without knowing the individual's circumstances possible mental illness etc , do you think calling someone a nut job and talking about bad elements in the gene pool is appropriate. I am just glad you are not a police officer with that attitude , I don't like to see anyone killed . The logic of what you are saying is just shoot anyone that is suicidal and do everyone a favour.

Last edited by manta49; January 19, 2014 at 07:39 AM.
manta49 is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 10:22 AM   #68
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,193
ClydeFrog wrote;
Quote:
I think some forum members & members of the general public have a misconception of who or what sworn US law enforcement officers are.
Many grew up with the "Officer Friendly" mindset or the policeman is my pal attitude.
Indeed, perhaps you are correct. I grew up in this small town in Tennessee, back during my youth we had a population of roughly 11,000 and had a police force of around 15 officers (some auxillary) , and a Chief. In that time (around 1969 ) These guys were "peace officers" sworn to protect, and serve. Myself, and several of my friends used to go to the police - fire station on Saturdays and hang out in the area, eating peanuts and drinking sodas and listening to the officers regale us with stories of their jobs. in return, we sometimes washed patrol cars and swept the parking lot and lobby. We felt, and I believe they were, Men who protected us and, were there to help if there was trouble. And many time in my life they have done just that. Interestingly, they also operated a shooting range of sorts and would allow us to use the range and even offered instruction. A "Mayberry-ish" feel to be sure.

Today, the city has grown to 25,000+ and we have more than 100 sworn officers, an SRT team, APC, Bomb Robot, remote cameras,etc. The police station is more akin to a "military base" you may not even enter the building without an officer escort. I work with the courts often and even then, we are only allowed to inspect the facility twice per year. The mindset of the officers has indeed changed as well, We seem to be mere "civilians" and there is a very pervasive us/them dynamic. "officer friendly" no longer exists. More is the pity.
As the department and mindset has changed, so have the tactics. It is also noteworthy that only 1 officer has ever been killed in the line of duty, that was in 1916.

This thread also reinforces my belief that, in today's world, you are much better served to arm yourself and, be prepared to protect yourself and, your family with as little "Law Enforcement" involvement in situations as possible as nothing good is likely to result from their involvement. The us/them sword cuts both ways.

ETA: Sorry for the veer but, you make a point worth highlighting.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -

Last edited by OuTcAsT; January 19, 2014 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Added additional thoughts.
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 10:38 AM   #69
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 518
for the armchair commandos, you do not match a knife (lethal) by pulling your Taser (less lethal).

that is all.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 10:48 AM   #70
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 247
Let me sum this up to make it easy. Going up against a man open carrying a pistol is simply NUTS...crazy whether it be with knives, a bat or even fists. Common survival sense dictates men with pistols should be treated with a certain care and charging them with a knife is not wise.

Going up against a man in uniform is SUICIDE. The uniformed man has the government behind them and more of his brothers outside. Those going up against the uniform are ready to die. If you are dealing with the uniformed man you really must take the greatest care possible by being silent, pleasent and cooperative.

I am wondering if the uniformed man could have retreated backwards outside thus saving the crazy guy from certain death. I know he has every right to shoot, but would it have been morally correct.
johnelmore is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 12:06 PM   #71
Ton
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2014
Posts: 7
Old knife attack video

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?ne...%3DeexGDSsJn9c

Watch the video from about 7:00 or so on. Police understand this reality better than most.

In most selection interviews/oral boards for becoming a police officer, a scenario will be presented that almost perfectly matches the situation that Officer Mortensen found himself in. The police candidate will be asked how they would respond. Typically, any response besides that of immediate lethal force after strong verbal commands are given will be grounds for failing the interview. The department needs to know that their officers will not end up like the officers in the video linked above.

Edit: The video also serves to show why Officer Mortensen chose 5 COM shots, instead of a leg shot, single shot, etc.
Ton is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 12:45 PM   #72
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 697
Nobody is arguing the officer should have allowed the man to stab him.

What some of us wonder is if the apparent 'pressure of time' approach was necessary; if you're only concerned the man is a danger to himself, isn't it essentially a 'hostage' situation? And in most hostage situations, don't we focus on giving space and time, within a controlled perimeter, to the hostage taker while we try to defuse their emotions?

In this instance, there were enough officers present to control the subject to within the house, and no 'pressure of time' other than a concern the man would hurt himself; a concern that was not only NOT prevented, but actually precipitated, by the police response.

I will restate it; never call the police to 'save' someone you think is going to harm themselves. It's like calling a hammer to paint a flower.


Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 01:19 PM   #73
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,193
DT Guy wrote;
Quote:
Nobody is arguing the officer should have allowed the man to stab him.

What some of us wonder is if the apparent 'pressure of time' approach was necessary; if you're only concerned the man is a danger to himself, isn't it essentially a 'hostage' situation? And in most hostage situations, don't we focus on giving space and time, within a controlled perimeter, to the hostage taker while we try to defuse their emotions?

In this instance, there were enough officers present to control the subject to within the house, and no 'pressure of time' other than a concern the man would hurt himself; a concern that was not only NOT prevented, but actually precipitated, by the police response.
That is a very concise explanation of the "other side" of the discussion. Well said.

This was the whole point I was trying to argue. It is not the actions of the officer defending himself that is remotely in question, any one of us "civilians" that were being approached by someone with a knife would likely have reacted similarly. The officer's response to the attack is not remotely questionable in my mind.

However, the questionable tactic that remains is the officer's initial response to the situation; Entering the house without seeming regard for the actual situation he was in. He did not ask many questions of the lady when he arrived, he was seemingly not on the same page with the other officers that were there to back him up. In short, he did not seem to take the time to gather enough intel, and formulate a plan other than, what I would consider a rather strong-arm approach to a delicate situation. As was said earlier;

Quote:
It's like calling a hammer to paint a flower.
If you simply want to look at the officer's reaction to the attack, then it looks like he handled it well. There is, however, a bigger picture.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 02:23 PM   #74
Elkins45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2010
Posts: 372
As has been pointed, EVERY situation that has ever occurred could have been handled differently. The officer could have stood on the porch and tried to yell at the guy through the door...and then could have also been sued by the grieving widow for not having entered the house and disarmed her husband when he decided to disembowel himself in the living room

It's not like the officer just decided to walk down the street, pick a random house and execute the occupant. He was called there because of a fear of violence after a violation of the law that happened elsewhere (leaving the scene of an accident).

Some of the comments on the page where the video was posted are just amazing. My favorite is how easy it is to take a knife away from somebody!
Elkins45 is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 02:32 PM   #75
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,261
Quote:
The officer could have stood on the porch and tried to yell at the guy through the door...and then could have also been sued by the grieving widow for not having entered the house and disarmed her husband when he decided to disembowel himself in the living room
Is that just your opinion or do you know cases where that happened. ? Is it not possible that his family could sue the officer or police department for going in and shooting him,if a jury have the same difference of opinion as people on this forum as to the tactics used they might have a case. This opinion that the officer had a duty to enter the house, could someone show me a department policy that says that. ?

Last edited by manta49; January 19, 2014 at 03:03 PM.
manta49 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13860 seconds with 7 queries