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Old January 14, 2014, 07:22 PM   #51
histed
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Dayman - if our local news has this right it was the PA turnpike. IF (and that's a big IF) they are correct, your statement is even more apropos since our turnpike has very few exits and/or service plazas. The Harrisburg stations did show pictures of the vehicle in the median of a four-lane of some kind. Either way, getting to a populated area would have been difficult. And, as AK said, we do seem to have more than our share of control freaks here.
BTW, this was the SECOND incident of its kind that night. About 8 hours earlier another driver rammed and shot up another pick-up (we're told) with at least one bullet barely missing the victim's head. Fortunately, in this incident, only the vehicle was damaged
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Old January 15, 2014, 02:57 PM   #52
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Help; highway patrols, lawsuits....

I'd add that road rage events or attacks(car-jackings/ambush) can be difficult in remote areas or periods(night-time). Bad weather or natural disasters make things worse!

A few years ago, family members of a elderly couple filed a wrongful death lawsuit against a state LE agency(the NC or SC highway patrol, if I recall).
The couple had a serious traffic accident on a state highway, crashed & the vehicle/bodies were not recovered for several weeks.

I'm not sure of the outcome of the civil action but a lesson Id learn from that is not to rely on sworn LE to rush to your aid or rescue.
I'd add that it's not a insult or criticism of a any state troopers or highway patrol either. Many of them need to cover 100s of miles or patrol huge sections by themselves.
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Old January 15, 2014, 07:48 PM   #53
Venom1956
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Quote:
Master the 4-wheel drift
This is implausible in this situation. There are to many variables to 'drift' when being pursued. A drift is a controlled skid, it bleeds off energy and over all makes you slower. To much oversteer or not enough countersteer you'll spin out. If you assailant means to ram off the road you... If you drift you're already doing half his work for him.

Also skids on public roads have their own variables crowned roads, ice, snow, water, gravel, dirt, changes in elevation, heaves in the surface and other imperfections in the road alter how your car will respond.

Those who push the limits of their abilities abruptly find them. Often with disastrous results.

I would say the victim in this situation had the same idea (no slight to the victim intended) he thought he could out drive the attacker and push it to far.
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Last edited by Venom1956; January 15, 2014 at 07:59 PM.
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Old January 15, 2014, 08:08 PM   #54
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Quote:
This is implausible in this situation. There are to many variables to 'drift' when being pursued. A drift is a controlled skid, it bleeds off energy and over all makes you slower. To much oversteer or not enough countersteer you'll spin out. If you assailant means to ram off the road you... If you drift you're already doing half his work for him.

Also skids on public roads have their own variables crowned roads, ice, snow, water, gravel, dirt, changes in elevation, heaves in the surface and other imperfections in the road alter how your car will respond.

Those who push the limits of their abilities abruptly find them. Often with disastrous results.

I would say the victim in this situation had the same idea (no slight to the victim intended) he thought he could out drive the attacker and push it to far.
Yup. Anyone proposing 4 wheel drifting in a modern vehicle is, well...talking out his backside. 4 wheel drifting, once upon a time in the days of live axles, certainly a FUN way to get around a track, but it hasn't been the quickest way around in many years. And simply won't work in any way, shape or form with a front drive vehicle.

Fact is, counselling a total stranger to use stunt driving techniques is on public roads is reckless and irresponsible, and endangers not just the players in the "road rage" event but everyone around them as well.

It's well to learn your capabilities and limitations as a driver through advanced driver training courses such as that taught at Skip Barber, Bondurant, etc. race driving schools. You'll learn the fundamentals of the physics applicable to vehicles at speed, how to induce and control oversteer and understeer, and how to recognize incipient skids and work your way out of them. But you can't do it over the internet. You can't even do it by watching a television show or video. You've got to do it under controlled conditions under the watch of someone who knows not just what the hell HE'S doing, but how to fix your bad habits too.
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Old January 15, 2014, 08:14 PM   #55
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Better yet....

If you have the time & $$$, Id suggest going to a driver/EVOC course like Bill Scott Raceway in WV. That program teaches many US military tier one(SEALs, ACE, ISA, etc) operators & EP(exec protection) agents.
Gryphon Security; www.gryphonsecurity.com does special driver training too. They deal with corporate security & PMCs(private military contractors).

Other car makers like BMW & Range Rover offer driving classes too. It's not tactical or evading methods but they do teach how to drive in bad weather or avoiding common problems.
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Old January 15, 2014, 09:42 PM   #56
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I did oversimplify a bit. I did say to practice in a parking lot. The point I was trying to make is to learn to be comfortable when the car or truck isn't 'pointed straight'.

Four wheel drifting isn't exactly a drift with FWD. That really takes practice. It's more of a controlled skid. We have a narrow two lane road I've practiced on and I can totally waste new tires in one 2- mile trip.

Evasive driving schools are where it's safest.
I have a hard time at times getting the basic idea across.

Uh, everybody does hit an empty parking lot as soon as it snows to get familiar with the handling, right? And clear all the snow off first to unload the springs and make the car feel natural, instead of squating with the springs pre-compressed and the balance way out of whack, right?
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Old January 15, 2014, 10:18 PM   #57
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I think an easier way to put it would be learn how to recover if your vehicle begins to skid or your handling becomes impaired in some way.

Such as this fine example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftGaTPpRlDw
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Old January 15, 2014, 11:01 PM   #58
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The driving in that video was excellent, by everyone, bad guy and cops both.
As for the venerable four wheel drift, it's still alive and well at stage rallies, stock car races, sprint cars, 'etc.
But mostly on dirt and gravel.
Back in the days of hard, skinny tires, it was the fast way around bends and fast corners, even on asphalt.
But todays wide and sticky tires and front and four wheel drive require a different technique.
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Old January 16, 2014, 12:47 AM   #59
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Most any typical carry round will go through a vehicle. The problem is deflection, and the variables there are endless. Impact bars, windshield thickness/angle, and height of vehicle. Do you shoot the tires? Can you?

I work in autobody, I've seen so many different vehicles that I couldn't tell you how to disable one, with another vehicle or firearm. There is no real offensive method to be sure of. Guns/gunfights are not meant for vehicles. A typical vehicle is meant for point A to point B, and nothing more. Some vehicles have different options available, and that can be beneficial.

If you know there is a real threat following, go above the speed limit, draw attention. If someone else calls the police, great, but have a way to prove it. Use your cell phones picture/video if available. Not all of us have the money for tires, safety features, and time to practice tactical driving techniques. Everyone should indeed test the limits of their vehicles, but only to their own abilities and safely, mostly for those areas most driven. Remember that all vehicles are subject to the same issues presented in firearms, they are not perfect and only work as well as you operate them. What you do can hurt people.

Looking at crashes, deploying air bags are the most distracting, not to mention the explosives in the seat belts. Most sensors for these are on the front impact bar, behind the bumper cover. It requires a certain amount of "G's" to set one off. Letting your rear end get hit causes issues in control, be ready to head in a safe direction. This only really works in open areas. Closed areas are always conditional. There is no clear answer either way, but if you leave your vehicle for cover, you may be hit by their vehicle...
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Old January 17, 2014, 10:54 PM   #60
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Quote:
If he was pursued for ten miles, wouldn't there be the possibility of going to a populated area where many people were around? How about driving to a police station?
+1
Chances are I will be armed therefore I will be calling the cops and driving to an area where I can have an advantage of engagement especially after he started ramping and shooting at me. This is when your choice of carry matters.
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Old January 20, 2014, 03:25 AM   #61
wayneinFL
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First, don't do anything to escalate the situation. Flee if possible. Call the police.

If forced to stop, like the victim, the recourse is to fight. Then do whatever you have to do.

Another road rage story:

http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/...adden-incident
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Old January 20, 2014, 05:05 AM   #62
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I think the chase started in MD and the shooting was on I-81 in PA. While not playing blame the victim, as someone who investigated various altercations, rarely is it 100% one person and a totally innocent victim in a road rage case. I am a PA resident and guns are easy to get and carry permits only require filling out a form and paying a small fee: IE; a lot of folks carry around here. What I am saying is before you start planning your tactics here, don't assume your opponent is dumb, unarmed, and doesn't know how to shoot.

The most successful way to safely get out of a situation like this is maintain a safe following distance and don't retaliate even if you are the wronged party. It is not worth it. I much prefer to indicate I am sorry to another motorist even if I did nothing wrong rather than try to crash the car or get in a shoot out over something stupid. YMMV
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Old January 21, 2014, 02:55 PM   #63
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What if?....

You know how to shoot but are unarmed?
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Old January 21, 2014, 03:33 PM   #64
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Armed or not, the car is your main weapon, until its not.
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Old January 22, 2014, 09:43 AM   #65
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I live within 30 miles of the incident and there has been a ton of media coverage.

It sounded like the victim called 911 while in MD. The MD center took the call but the call was dropped when he entered PA. He called back and got the PA call center.

He was on the phone with 911 when the bad guy was shooting at him. MD State Police arrived on the scene before PA State Police.

The victim was spun out in the median and the bad guy stopped / came back and shot him dead.
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Old January 22, 2014, 10:01 AM   #66
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Wayne, that link and story was amazing. Just read it all. Thank you so much for posting.
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Old January 22, 2014, 12:51 PM   #67
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Not to put the blame on the victim, but I have to wonder what he did to **** off his killer.
Maybe nothing.
Maybe unintentionally cut him off during a lane change.
Maybe he brake checked him repeatedly for driving behind him with highbeams on.
Maybe he backed over his dog at a rest area 100 miles earlier.

Maybe nothing, nothing except be in the wrong place to be singled out, and if it wasn't him it would have been someone else.
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Old January 22, 2014, 12:57 PM   #68
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Reverse 180

Quote:
Even a 180 in reverse is easy if you practice. Just don't touch the brake pedal!

Wait, what?
Thats how I do a reverse 180...
30-50 mph in reverse, stab the brakes and flick the wheel in the opposite direction you want to spin, as the car rotates drop the shifter into a forward gear, stomp the gas as the car straightens out.
What am I missing? Been working for since the early eighties.
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Old January 22, 2014, 01:03 PM   #69
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Very good point

Quote:
It may be better to "be tried by 12 than carried by 6", but how do you defend yourself in time to actually save yourself? If someone is trying to run you off the road and you bump them and send them out of control into a oak tree, YOU now are going to be seen as a murdering road rage idiot.

It's a conundrum
.


And at what point do you decide, this guy that was in my blind spot that I accidently cut off and gave a friendly (5 fingered) wave of apology to is going to kill me if I don't send him off the road. He was only being "followed" per the media before the victim was run off the road and murdered.
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Old January 23, 2014, 12:50 AM   #70
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Wait, what?
Thats how I do a reverse 180...
30-50 mph in reverse, stab the brakes and flick the wheel in the opposite direction you want to spin, as the car rotates drop the shifter into a forward gear, stomp the gas as the car straightens out.
What am I missing? Been working for since the early eighties.

For a proper J-turn you do not need to go near that fast about 20, then 1/4 turn on the wheel. If you are moving forward and want to do a 180, after you crank the wheel a jab to the brakes will shift the center of gravity and aid in your slide.
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Old January 23, 2014, 11:29 AM   #71
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Folks, in this case, remember this happened on an interstate highway with traffic going 70 mph give or take in the same direction. Doing a 180 there would probably be at least as dangerous as being shot at. That technique may be more appropriate under different circumstances but probably not for this one.
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Old January 24, 2014, 06:53 PM   #72
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Folks, in this case, remember this happened on an interstate highway with traffic going 70 mph give or take in the same direction. Doing a 180 there would probably be at least as dangerous as being shot at. That technique may be more appropriate under different circumstances but probably not for this one.
Never said it was not dangerous or that it was appropriate in the situation. Just like in shooting it pays to be the master of your car. Just as there are shooting schools there are driving schools.

There is always more to the story, or as Paul Harvey said "The rest of the Story".
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Old January 25, 2014, 05:25 PM   #73
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Yep, lots of practice. I made my wife nervous for the first time yesterday practicing because I was dialing a phone number while 'waiting' for the car to line up where I wanted it before straighening out.
Yankee Traveler, it's safer not to touch the brake when doing it in reverse. Try it by pushing a grocery cart backwards and letting go.
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Old January 28, 2014, 01:40 PM   #74
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Ive been following this thread a while now. I cannot quarterback this scenario, there are too many things about it I don't know. I can however, play it out as it applies to me. Long story short my finances do not allow for me to drive a new vehicle at this time. I drive a 00 Honda civic to get to work and back. Lots of people here in Texas love to drive F250s and as if those aren't already big enough they then jack them up in the air about 12 inches and mount oversized tires. Then they put heavy duty grill guards that stick out a foot or more off of the front end. In these vehicles they barrel down the roads at 80 sometimes 100+. There has been much talk about maneuvering and j turns and all of this, but my car cannot outrun an F250 or its equivalent, and at highway speeds outmaneuvering one is out of the question so Ill put it this way. I care not what the other person is driving. The laws that apply to me apply to them also and the FIRST (#1) time that my vehicle is struck in such a way as to cause me to believe it was done with intent to destroy it and/or the person/people inside it I will not wait for them to do it again, and I will not wait for police either.
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Old January 28, 2014, 07:04 PM   #75
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There is an episode of First Person Defender that deals with a road rage scenario. They talk about how to exit the vehicle quickly without getting tangled up on the seat belt. It could be a useful skill to have if you need to (or are forced to) stop.
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