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Old January 6, 2014, 05:29 PM   #1
mnoirot64
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Hand Loading Self Defense Ammo

Okay. I hope that gets your attention. If I were a betting man, I would say this post may end up several pages long.

I posted earlier about what your favorite SD bullet was. Based on some responses, I thought I better clarify my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real_Gun
With your 49 posts, possibly a newcomer, I have to ask if you meant "what cartridges (or ammo)" we use for self defense.
I really did mean bullets. Perhaps I am way off base here, but I assume some of you reload your own self defense ammo. Maybe I'm wrong though. I know many people do not believe you should hand load ammo for which the sole purpose is to stop the BG. I understand the logic in that, but part of me believes I have much more control over the finished cartridge when I'm loading it. Am I totally crazy? Should I only buy factory SD ammo or is it okay to hand load my own? I have fired dozens of my meticulously loaded SD ammo and have had ZERO problems. I've also seen posts which state that I may be more at risk for a civil lawsuit if I load my own as I might be considered someone looking for a fight. GOD willing I will never have to draw my weapon in self defense.

So to sum up my post, I would like to know if anyone hand loads their SD ammo and if so, which projectile (bullet) do you trust your life with? I carry only 45 ACPs and am considering the Barnes TAC-XP in 185 grain or the Hornady 185 grain XTP. Thanks, friends!
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Old January 6, 2014, 05:50 PM   #2
Spats McGee
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This topic has been dissected a dozen ways from Sunday. If you really want to know the ins and outs of it, I suggest that you hit some of the threads here.

IMHO, it's a really bad idea to use handloads or reloads for SD.

Just a couple of quick links from the archive:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448754

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...9&postcount=34

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...2&postcount=37

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...&postcount=118

Granted, 2 of the 4 above links go to my posts, but this is a topic that is (apparently) near and dear to my heart.
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Old January 6, 2014, 05:50 PM   #3
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Yes, I know the warnings too. But, Who the heck is going to know?
with that said,
I lik'em Big and Slow, 230 XTP..
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Old January 6, 2014, 05:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
IMHO, it's a really bad idea to use handloads or reloads for SD.
Thank you for sending me these links. They all appear to relate more to the legal consequences of using hand loads for SD ammo. Do you think it's a bad idea because of the potential legal repercussions or is it due more to their reliability?
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:02 PM   #5
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It's about legal repercussions. It's about the interplay between gunshot residue, calculating distance to target, and the rules of evidence.
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:03 PM   #6
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And Because the D.A. Can say that you made them Extra Deadly………
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:07 PM   #7
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Debate....

The "should you use reloads or hand-loads" for protection or home defense?

I say no!
A few gun owners & hunters may say; "my sheriff's my fishing buddy" or "I only care about winning the gunfight." but I would not count on any LE officials or DAs/State Attys. Elected officials want to stay in office.
The "recent high profile court case" in Florida should clearly show you or any license holder/firearm owner that a lawyer might twist a lethal force case around. Your handloads or reloads can't be checked like factory made LE grade ammuntion. A bus-load of expert witnesses could waltz onto the stand & under oath take your legal defense apart.

A valid argument could be made for defense rounds that are rare or out of production due to high demand or public contracts but in 2014, Id stick to factory made high quality rounds.
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Do you think it's a bad idea because of the potential legal repercussions or is it due more to their reliability?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
It's about legal repercussions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TATER
Because the D.A. Can say that you made them Extra Deadly………
It's a good thing that everyone doesn't know about this. It seems to me that Speer, Barnes and Hornady would not sell as many of their bullets.
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:11 PM   #9
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.45-230grn.XTP
.40-180grn.XTP
9mm-124grn.XTP

I've shot critters with XTPs so I KNOW what kind of damage they can do.
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:22 PM   #10
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Just think'en out loud.. But,
If you were using approved Store bought self-defense Ammo, And
If you have a room in your home dedicated to reloading and firearms, and If the DA And Prosecutor are bent,
I would think you would have a tuff time proving it Was store bought, If they were to go that rout.
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:23 PM   #11
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There are a ton of good commercial loadings out there for SD ammo. I've heard some folks mention things about accuracy or not enough velocity. Sure you might be able to load more accurate and powerful ammo but why risk the potential fallout by loading your own. Sure velocity and accuracy matter when it comes to SD rounds, but so does shot placement. You could have the greatest round in the world but if you can't hit the side of a barn in a high stress situation what does it matter.

I get it...I really do. I carry 10mm and anybody that shoots that knows that there isn't all that wide a range of SD ammo to choose from as there would be for other popular calibers. I know I can make better quality rounds at a considerably cheaper price. I have made some awesome rounds that were accurate as can be and had respectable velocity and laid the hurt on all sorts of targets. Then I snap back to the reality that should I ever need to use my gun, one of the last things I need is somebody questioning my ammo and me not giving them a satisfactory answer and potentially ending up in some sort of legal trouble. I've never been in a situation where I have had to use my gun so who knows...that aspect might not even come up. I'd rather not find out.
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Just think'en out loud.. But,
If you were using approved Store bought self-defense Ammo, And
If you have a room in your home dedicated to reloading and firearms, and If the DA And Prosecutor are bent,
I would think you would have a tuff time proving it Was store bought, If they were to go that rout.
Keep the box and any extra rounds together is what I have always done. If they have any doubt they can test it. If you used a Gold Dot bullet I would think they would be able to tell the difference between that and say an XTP or Silvertip. Maybe they can't. Not sure if powder leaves behind any telltale residues that would let you identify with any degree of certainty what powder was used.
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Old January 6, 2014, 06:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TATER
Just think'en out loud.. But,
If you were using approved Store bought self-defense Ammo, And
If you have a room in your home dedicated to reloading and firearms, and If the DA And Prosecutor are bent,
I would think you would have a tuff time proving it Was store bought, If they were to go that rout.
That is a very good point. I have lots of hand loaded 45 ACP, .44 magnum and 357 magnum SD ammunition locked in my cabinet. Hell, if the authorities ever came to my house they would think I was preparing for Armageddon. I have thousands of rounds of hand loads for everything from .44 magnum to .338 RUM. Plus I have a huge stock of powders and bullets. The simple fact is that using your CCW gun for self defense is going to be a bad day - and a life changing event. I mainly want to hand load my SD ammo because I am confident in it and I like to do it.
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Old January 6, 2014, 07:18 PM   #14
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Here are just a few points from my perspective on defending an SD shoot:
1) A good shoot is only a good shoot after, the police, a prosecutor, and perhaps a judge and jury have decided it is.
2) If you had to shoot anyone in SD, something has already gone very wrong.
3) If it goes from #1 to being called "the defendant" by someone in a black robe, it's gotten even worse.
4) If #1 and #2 have happened, there's probably a civil lawsuit on the way.
5) In order to defend yourself against the criminal action, the SD shooter will likely have to take the stand.
6) If you do take the stand, the prosecutor is free to ask you what kind of ammunition you were using. Lying on the stand is perjury, a felony in my jurisdiction.
7) The folks down at your local State Crime Lab probably have considerable experience looking at shell casings, and in my experience, those folks are pretty good at what they do.
8) If there's any dispute over the distance at which the SD shooter fired, and gunshot residue would be useful in resolving that dispute:
a) a shooter who used handloads must ask the court and the jury to accept at face value that the rounds were loaded just like he claims; but
b) a shooter who used factory rounds can ask the court and the jury to accept at face value that the rounds were loaded just like some neutral third-party with no stake in the outcome claims.
I, for one, decline to "spot the other side any points." I want my lawyer to have every possible piece of exculpatory evidence at his disposal.
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Old January 6, 2014, 07:55 PM   #15
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@ Spats McGee - You make some very good points. I have a lawyer friend here in Clarksville who has done work on behalf of USCCA on SD cases. I am going to ask him. My bet is he will concur with everything you've said.
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Old January 6, 2014, 07:58 PM   #16
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The ONLY reason that using handloads for SD is a bad idea is because some people decided it was a bad idea and have continually beat the drum, in contravention of science and facts. So the prosecutor gets on TFL, and GT, and...and uses the words of "peers" to show that you went against "what a common man" would do by loading your own ammo. If people like Spats McGee would look at facts sans emotion, this discussion would be a non-issue. Posts like Spats McGee's are potentially harmful to the shooting and self defense community in general, and could be very harmful to a specific person who defended him or herself with a firearm. Theoretically and emotionally charged opinion at best.

Quote:
7) The folks down at your local State Crime Lab probably have considerable experience looking at shell casings, and in my experience, those folks are pretty good at what they do.
Just like any other occupation, good and bad. In most cases, good, but in some cases, they have been less than forthright and their "opinion" is not cast in stone by any stretch. Although, most jurors watch too much CSI and NCIS to be objective, a point which a good defense expert can overcome.

Quote:
8) If there's any dispute over the distance at which the SD shooter fired, and gunshot residue would be useful in resolving that dispute:
a) a shooter who used handloads must ask the court and the jury to accept at face value that the rounds were loaded just like he claims; but
b) a shooter who used factory rounds can ask the court and the jury to accept at face value that the rounds were loaded just like some neutral third-party with no stake in the outcome claims.
Very misleading. In one case I worked on as an expert, the opposing expert was withdrawn for expounding this kind of junk science. There are numerous techniques for determining range and velocity, GSR is only but one, and not a great one in many cases.

Harsh? Maybe, but I don't take kindly to someone who tosses rubbish on the the right of Americans to defend themselves in the manner they see as best. More so when it is only theoretical regurgitation of what someone else told them. Factory ammo is expensive, and if that is what you carry, that is what you should practice with. That can be cost prohibitive. Spats presented a theory (*it does not really even qualify as an opinion in the legal sense since he can't back it up), I presented a counter argument. Do your research, THINK, and make your choice. YOU are the one that has to live with the consequences.

Quote:
*So, if scientific or specialized knowledge will help the jury, an expert's opinion is admissible if:
(1) the testimony is based upon sufficient facts or data,
(2) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods, and
(3) the witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the facts of the case.
1) Does not exist to support McGee's assertions.
2) Does not exist to support McGee's assertions.
3) McGee still, in several posts, has not been able to cite a case, nor use his assertions to prove his theories. If he was produced as an expert, he would likely see a successful Daubert Challenge.
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Old January 6, 2014, 08:10 PM   #17
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I use Magnus Bullets 158 grain SWCHP's in .38 Special for home defense, and when I carry a .38 to church.

My HD carbine (Mini 14) has both factory 62 grain and 55 grain FMJ magazines loaded for it, but I would also be okay with reloading Hornady 55 grain SP's if I couldn't get factory ammo. (I have a few thousand of those bullets)

Whether you choose to carry handloads or not, I think it's important to have loads worked-up that you *could* carry if you run out of factory ammo. The .22LR drought has lasted over a year; there's no reason 9mm (or whatever) couldn't also disappear for many months (or forever.)
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Old January 6, 2014, 08:10 PM   #18
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I suppose a lot of prosecution expert witnesses could attempt to drill holes in the testimony of anyone trying to defend themselves from charges related to a SD altercation. The simple fact of the matter is that "dead is dead" whether it was caused by a factory load or a quality hand load. Hell, my FMJ practice ammo could be far more devastating than a quality SD hand load as it could very easily cause injury to innocent bystanders. At the end of the day, I agree with MarkCO:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Do your research, THINK, and make your choice. YOU are the one that has to live with the consequences.
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Old January 6, 2014, 08:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
The ONLY reason that using handloads for SD is a bad idea is because some people decided it was a bad idea and have continually beat the drum, in contravention of science and facts.
Wrong. I've done the legal research, and if you'll dig through the links I've provided, you can see where I've laid it out in terms of the rules of evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
So the prosecutor gets on TFL, and GT, and...and uses the words of "peers" to show that you went against "what a common man" would do by loading your own ammo.
And how do you supposed "the prosecutor" would do that? How, exactly, would you expect "the prosecutor" to get "the words of peers," as posted on TFL and GT introduced as evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
If people like Spats McGee would look at facts sans emotion, this discussion would be a non-issue.
I have, but it's not. May you never need the services of an attorney, but if you do, you're welcome to handicap that defense in any way you please. I'll pass on doing the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Posts like Spats McGee's are potentially harmful to the shooting and self defense community in general, and could be very harmful to a specific person who defended him or herself with a firearm. Theoretically and emotionally charged opinion at best.
I'm not sure how you think my posts could be harmful to the shooting or SD community in general, but I'll have to disagree with your assessment of them as "emotionally charged." That's neither here nor there, though. Is it theoretical? A large part of what lawyers do is predict the probable outcomes of cases, based on what courts have held in the past.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
7) The folks down at your local State Crime Lab probably have considerable experience looking at shell casings, and in my experience, those folks are pretty good at what they do.
Just like any other occupation, good and bad. In most cases, good, but in some cases, they have been less than forthright and their "opinion" is not cast in stone by any stretch. Although, most jurors watch too much CSI and NCIS to be objective, a point which a good defense expert can overcome.
True. #7 was primarily directed at the question posed earlier about "how would they know that you used handloads?"

If push really came to shove, though, I'd still prefer to be able to use my own expert to testify as to an opinion regarding exemplar evidence from a disinterested third-party, though.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
8) If there's any dispute over the distance at which the SD shooter fired, and gunshot residue would be useful in resolving that dispute:
a) a shooter who used handloads must ask the court and the jury to accept at face value that the rounds were loaded just like he claims; but
b) a shooter who used factory rounds can ask the court and the jury to accept at face value that the rounds were loaded just like some neutral third-party with no stake in the outcome claims.
Very misleading. In one case I worked on as an expert, the opposing expert was withdrawn for expounding this kind of junk science. There are numerous techniques for determining range and velocity, GSR is only but one, and not a great one in many cases.
Can you give me the court and case style? I'd be very interested in reading some of that case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Harsh? Maybe, but I don't take kindly to someone who tosses rubbish on the the right of Americans to defend themselves in the manner they see as best. More so when it is only theoretical regurgitation of what someone else told them. Factory ammo is expensive, and if that is what you carry, that is what you should practice with. That can be cost prohibitive. Spats presented a theory (it does not really even qualify as an opinion in the legal sense since he can't back it up), I presented a counter argument. Do your research, THINK, and make your choice. YOU are the one that has to live with the consequences.
First, I have said nothing about "the right of Americans to defend themselves in the manner they see as best." You have a right to vote for Gilligan in the next election, too, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Believe me, I understand that factory SD ammo is expensive. Were I giving legal advice (which I'm not), I'd suggest working up a handload that mimics your favorite SD round. Practice with the handload and carry the factory round.

Second, if you'll go back and read through some of the links I've provided, you'll find that I have backed it up. For your convenience, I'll copy part of the analysis I did of the rules of evidence:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
For purposes of this discussion, I'm going to stick with the Federal Rules of Evidence. I know that most of these cases come down on state law grounds, but I'd like to avoid veering off into discussions of one state's rules of evidence against another. Many states use the Federal Rules as a model, and they'll give us some common ground from which to work.

So, first off, relevance:
Quote:
All relevant evidence is admissible, except as otherwise provided by the Constitution of the United States, by Act of Congress, by these rules, or by other rules prescribed by the Supreme Court pursuant to statutory authority. Evidence which is not relevant is not admissible. Fed. R. Evid. 402
If it's relevant and not otherwise excluded, it gets in. If it's not relevant, it doesn't.

But (& this is a big but), GSR is specialized enough that it is considered "expert testimony. That means that Rule 702 governs it:

Quote:
If scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue, a witness qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education, may testify thereto in the form of an opinion or otherwise, if (1) the testimony is based upon sufficient facts or data, (2) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods, and (3) the witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the facts of the case. Fed. R. Evid. 702(emphasis supplied)
So, if scientific or specialized knowledge will help the jury, an expert's opinion is admissible if:
(1) the testimony is based upon sufficient facts or data,
(2) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods, and
(3) the witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the facts of the case.

You have to have all three to get the testimony of the shooter's expert in front of the jury. If the prosecutor files a Motion in Limine prior to trial, asking that it be excluded, he or she will simply argue that the opinion of the handloading defendant's expert is based on unreliable data. Specifically, what the prosecutor is saying is that because the data belongs to the defendant, it's inherently unreliable. I think there's a good chance that nobody was around when the cartridges were loaded, so there's no independent witness. If there is a witness, it's probably a good friend of the defendant. As a result, any data on which the opinion is based is suspect. The prosecutor may not argue with how the defendant's expert got from A to B, but what if A wasn't the right starting point? Then B becomes an unreliable conclusion. Anyway, if the motion in limine succeeds, there can be no mention of the defendant's expert at trial, and the jury will never hear about it.
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Old January 6, 2014, 09:54 PM   #20
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Not this again!

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Old January 6, 2014, 10:09 PM   #21
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I enjoyed the face palm picture!
I've debated this issue a ton in my own head. I'm personally convinced that if I have to use my weapon in self defense that there are going to be two court cases. One criminal and one civil. The Florida case seemed like a clear cut god shoot to me but there was a person on trial....


Where I've ended up is that in the future if my reloading skills and a valuable components exceed factory ammo then I will gladly carry that. Until then it's critical duty in all my guns.
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Old January 7, 2014, 03:11 AM   #22
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Yea, this again. The ONLY case I've ever read about where the fact of the killer bullet having been hand loaded had nothing at all to do with being "extra deadly" or any such nonsense.
In this case, the wife had been shot in the side of her head. The husband claimed that she had held the gun a short distance from her head and fired.
This was a hand loaded cartridge, using a solid lead projectile in a reduced load. The husband said that he had made these up for her because she enjoyed shooting, but she was recoil sensitive.
The catch in this case was that there was no powder residue or blast evidence, as there would have been if the muzzle was within 6" of the entry. Tests with other cartridges from the same batch indicated that there would have been powder residue at distances even further than would be possible if it was a suicide, with her holding the gun.
***
This whole issue was started by Massad Ayoob, who didn't have any other drivel to fill his column by the time it came due. I have less than ZERO regard for him and his ilk. That's why I do my own research; my own testing, and by all means, my OWN loading.
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Old January 7, 2014, 05:42 AM   #23
Mike / Tx
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Well back to the OP, yes I have handloads in my firearms, and in a SD situation that is what will be used.

I do not have a CCL, but if I did what ever I was likely to carrying at the time would more than likely have handloads in it.

I have a plethora of factory mad bullets in which to choose from as well as numerous home cast bullets in which I have the fullest confidence in.

"IF" I am forced to use what ever I have with me at the time, while traveling to and from my property in the country, or from the sanctity of my home, there will not be much doubt that it was something that wasn't in my favor to start out with. If I am forced to use deadly force it will be just that and I will take my chances with the jury of 6 or 12.

I do not frequent areas which are subject and I do not advertise things at my home which would lead anyone to believe it is worth their life to come inside uninvited. Should that happen it will not be a good day for either of us.
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Old January 7, 2014, 07:32 AM   #24
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Quote:
Yes, I know the warnings too. But, Who the heck is going to know?
How about LE when the gun and ammo are taken as evidence in the SD shooting and kept until the decision of charges being/not being filed are made. You can bet that if charges are filed they WILL look at all aspects, gun, ammo.
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Old January 7, 2014, 08:34 AM   #25
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I load my SD ammo, all of it.

10mm=180gr XTP

45ACP=230gr XTP

40 S&W=180gr XTP

9mm=124gr XTP

25ACP=50gr FMJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by cryogenic419
Sure you might be able to load more accurate and powerful ammo but why risk the potential fallout by loading your own...
... I carry 10mm and anybody that shoots that knows that there isn't all that wide a range of SD ammo to choose from as there would be for other popular calibers. I know I can make better quality rounds at a considerably cheaper price. I have made some awesome rounds that were accurate as can be and had respectable velocity and laid the hurt on all sorts of targets. Then I snap back to the reality that should I ever need to use my gun, one of the last things I need is somebody questioning my ammo and me not giving them a satisfactory answer and potentially ending up in some sort of legal trouble. I've never been in a situation where I have had to use my gun so who knows...that aspect might not even come up. I'd rather not find out.
If you are worried about "legal trouble" by carrying the wrong ammo, you may want to rethink your choice of firearm as well.

Think Harold Fish.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/#.Usv3ndJDuSo

Fish was convicted of Murder for killing a man that Fish said was going to attack him. Fish shot him with a 10mm.

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

Michael Lessler, prosecutor: Mr. Fish shot him three time in the chest with this high powered gun, hollow point bullets and caused his death. That’s murder.

Juror.

Elliot: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill.


It wasn't handloads that helped convict Mr Fish, It was a Hollow point bullet and his 10mm. No mention that they were handloads, just hollow points, probably factory SD loads.
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