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Old January 6, 2014, 06:17 PM   #51
ozarkhillbilly
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The sig guy bought a 229, my point is at least one has a good gun even though both of their reasons are flawed. Snobbery comes in all types I have seen cheap snobs and rich snobs but at least rich snobs usually walk away with a good product even if they can not use it to its fullest advantage.

The reason most good glass comes from Germany or Japan is because that is where most good camera lens companies are.
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Old January 6, 2014, 10:45 PM   #52
buckhorn_cortez
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It's pretty easy to see, it's all over the forum. Go to the rifle section and ask what scope to get for $150. Ask how much your budget SHOULD be. You'll soon find out that the scope should cost at least as much as the gun, some say 50% more! I've even seen double.

That's what the OP is talking about. Not just having an appreciation for finer things, not simply owning expensive guns but looking down your nose at people who can't afford them or don't want to, while telling them all the reasons they're stupid or foolish for not spending a months take home pay on an optic.
Hmmmm....well, scopes are interesting. I'm not qualified to tell anyone what $150 scope to buy as I've never looked into optics of that level so I could not make a recommendation. However, I can tell you that there are real performance differences between products at different price points.

I've been professionally involved with optics for about 45 years - and you generally do get what you pay for in optics if you know how to choose and evaluate the lens, binocular, telescope, or rifle scope - and, most importantly know how to define the performance and features you need in an optic.

Most mid-range scopes will give you 80-85% of the performance of a high end scope which, for a lot of people, will work for 100% of the shooting they do. I have a $600 scope on my AR15 and a $3300 scope on my precision AR10. Both do exactly the work they need to do and were chosen for their performance and not price.

I also have a 35 year old Leupold Vari-X III purchased for a custom rifle of the same age. I wouldn't trade that scope for any new scope because I'm so used to shooting the combination of gun and rifle scope. At this point, the performance of the pair are known at ranges from 100-600 yards just through use, in effect, they're a matched pair and I have no need to change anything.

Could I find a "better" scope today? You bet. Optics have improved immensely in the past 35 years with better coatings, designs and manufacturing techniques. But - the question is what would I gain? My answer is not much - I'm satisfied with the performance I have.

What you get in a truly high end optic is generally mechanical robustness paired with optics that provide better eye relief, color transmission, percentage of light transmission, contrast, and clarity. The image will appear more three dimensional and where the scope will really provide a performance difference is in low contrast, low light situations.

There can be other features like 80 MOA or MIL adjustments in the turrets, repeatable zero stop adjustments, custom reticles, front focal plane reticles, and lighted reticles - all of those kind of features raise the price of the optic and require additional mechanical design, engineering, and manufacturing steps to ensure they are as robust as the tube itself.

With scopes you can narrow down the requirements by very carefully evaluating the features you need to support the shooting tasks you have in mind.

Hunting has a totally different set of requirements than target shooting which is different than precision tactical rifle shooting, etc. Evaluating the use of the optic will lead to a range of choices which then have to be matched to the budget you have available for the scope.

My only advice on any type of optic is to buy the best you can afford when you purchase it from a known, quality manufacturer.

Last edited by buckhorn_cortez; January 6, 2014 at 10:58 PM.
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Old January 6, 2014, 11:58 PM   #53
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If I know a particular gun is junk I'm going to tell someone. But only if I've had experience with that exact gun......Just reading about it on the internet doesn't make it so...

On the other hand I own several weapons that get sub par ratings from the internet gun snobs. I have a Kimber Eclipse Custom II and 3 DPMS rifles...all of them declared garbage by the know-it-all's on internet gun forums. Yet they have been perfect examples of the type of weapon that they represent. Never a gun related malfunction through thousands and thousands of rounds.

Gun snobs can have their opinions....but I'll take my own advice
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Old January 7, 2014, 04:26 AM   #54
gc70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarkhillbilly
Who is the snob and who made the better choice?
Who is the snob? Skans is probably right that they were initially just ignorant rather than being snobs, but either one or both could become snobs; it depends on how they interact with others regarding their purchases. The Sig guy could be dismissive of guns less expensive than his and the Jiminez guy could be critical of guns more expensive than his.

Who made the better choice? That is a matter of who is happy with their purchase and whether the gun meets the owner's needs. Most of us on TFL are devoted gun folks, but a lot of people will buy a gun, shoot it a time or two, and stick it in a nightstand drawer. For those people, it may not matter much what particular gun is in the nightstand drawer for the next several decades - unused, neglected, and not maintained.
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Old January 7, 2014, 07:37 AM   #55
Don P
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One of my co-workers has told me more than once that my Mosins are clubs compared to Garrands and that the Mosins are useless. To each there own
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Old January 7, 2014, 08:25 AM   #56
Skans
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co-workers has told me more than once that my Mosins are clubs compared to Garrands and that the Mosins are useless.
I suppose that is about as good of an example of a true gun snob as I've seen.
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Old January 7, 2014, 12:37 PM   #57
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarkhillbilly
Let me ask a question. I know two people that just got into shooting, neither knew anything about guns, one of them bought a Jimenze because it was cheap the other bought a Sig because it was the most expensive that the store had that day and he figured that price equates quality. Both of these guns are for CCW, and both are proud of their guns and both could have afforded a Glock or XD or any $400 to $600 gun.
Who is the snob and who made the better choice?
There is no snobbery involved in your example.

It has nothing to do with buying something expensive just because you can or buying something cheap just because you want to. It's the attitude that you display that's the problem. It has nothing to do with liking what you've got and telling others why you like it or recommending it to others.

Snobbery is when "Product Y" is the only product worth buying and anyone who buys anything else is an idiot.

It's not "I bought Product Y because it does X, Y and Z and those features also fit your criteria well." That's just advice.

Snobbery is "Product Y is the best there is, Product X is not fit to walk in the odor of Product Y's flatulence. If you buy Product X you'll be sorry. It will cost you the buck of a lifetime"or "What's your family worth to you?, you really claim to love them and you're going to claim to protect them with that junk?"

THAT is snobbery.
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Old January 7, 2014, 01:39 PM   #58
ClydeFrog
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What you say/think....

Whenever I see any gun owner or armed officer with a off-brand(low end), I think;
A) They can't afford a better model & may be saving up to get one later.
B) They might not know enough about the shooting sports industry or guns to get a better sidearm.
C) The person is cheap or wants to save $$$.
D) Their other(better) pistol or revolver is unavailable or the post might not be somewhere they want to carry a high end weapon.

Id like to think most gun owners learn about the industry but mostly Id say it's B or C.
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Old January 7, 2014, 03:31 PM   #59
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So who pays attention to them? I don't like Glocks, many others do. No one has forced me to buy one -now giving me one is another matter. As a Life Member of SNM-Sons of Neandethal Man-I don't care for non-steel frames.
31 years of military service, Active and Reserve-don't care for the M-16/AR-15 and the 5.56 cartridge, won't buy one. Now if you want to GIVE me one...
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Old January 7, 2014, 03:38 PM   #60
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Quote:
So who pays attention to them?
Generally, no one who usually posts on this forum. Heck, many of the folks here are walking guncyclopedias. However, people new to shooting and firearms would have a hard time ignoring some off-hand remarks made about various guns, simply because they wouldn't know any better. Brian's examples of "It will cost you the buck of a lifetime" and "What's your family worth to you" come to mind.
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Old January 7, 2014, 05:39 PM   #61
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Pfleuger:

It's the attitude that you display that's the problem. It has nothing to do with liking what you've got and telling others why you like it or recommending it to others.

That's why "friendly Gun Snob" is an Oxymoron. The definition of a snob........ A snob is a person who believes in the existence of an equation between status and human worth. The term also refers to a person who believes that some people are inherently inferior to him or her for any one of a variety of reasons, including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, power, physical strength, class, taste, beauty, nationality, fame, extreme success of a family member or friend, etc.

Acting friendly towards folks who you think are inferior is not being friendly, but patronizing.
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Old January 8, 2014, 03:58 PM   #62
KyJim
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Do I appreciate and own certain expensive guns? Yep. Do I think they are the only way to go? Nope. I've carried a $300 Bersa and a $2,500 Brown, sometimes on consecutive days. I appreciate them both for what they are and what they do. Still, the Bersa is not the gun the Brown is. Saying that does not make someone a gun snob.
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Old January 8, 2014, 09:59 PM   #63
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We see snobbery in our everyday lives. The Honda buyer looks down on the Kia buyer. The Lexus buyer looks down on the Honda buyer. The BMW buyer looks down on the Lexus buyer, etc. Most drivers sit in traffic on their way to/from work every day and don't get to use that 375 HP machine under them but they feel superior to the schmuck next to them on the road. This guy is a car snob. He feels superior because he drives a better car. He has no idea why the car is better but the price tag tells him it is. Now, the guy who buys the nicer car because it handles better and he takes it out into the country to open it up and use it the way it was designed may not be a snob. He appreciates what he has and enjoys it. He doesn't care what the guy next to him on the expressway drives. He drives what he wants and can afford. Everyone else drives what they want and can afford and life is good.

Now, the snob that gets under my skin is the guy who can't really explain why his gun is better but throws out the "well, how much is the safety of your family worth?" His stance is that since he spent more on his gun, he values the life of himself and his family more than you do. This kind of snob can pound sand. He just doesn't get it. I always hope his expensive gun jams at the range in front of his friends because he limp-wristed it.
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Old January 9, 2014, 12:40 AM   #64
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Quote:
Purdy or Holland & Holland
If I did not know what these were before Googling them, am I safe from being a gun snob (holy heck, some of those guns are worth more than my house, and both our cars combined!!!!!!! $225,000 for a shotgun!?!?)?

Seriously though, you see it all the time (especially in regards to scopes) around here. I saw a thread recently where the expressed budget for a scope to shoot out to 300 yards at medium sized game and informal range work was $400. Inevitably, you had people talking NightForce and other very expensive scopes and explaining why a FPP was better and suggesting he save up a for a few more months to get X. In reality, most "mid-priced" scopes would accomplish what he was looking for.

It seems that the "snobbery" of rifles is calming down in the last couple of years. I attribute it to the success of rifles like the Ruger American, Marlin X7, and Savage Axis. With modern manufacturing techniques, it is not difficult to get a sub-MOA rifle, with glass, for under $400ish. I own a Savage Axis in 223 that shoots under 1/2 MOA (with handloads) and have a 308 on the way. For most rifle shooters, the proof is in the target and snobbery disappears when they see the results. Sure the bolt throw on a custom gun or Sendero may be smoother or the trigger may be crisper, and if those features are important to you and worth the money in your eye to meet your needs, you are not a snob, you are buying what you perceive you need.

For me, it comes down to what product will satisfy the needs and wants of the individual. For me, if product X costs $600 and Product Y costs $900, and both will do what I want them to do, I will buy Product X every time. Some people may differ. To me, that is why there are countless choices for every application, so that everyone can have what they want for an amount they are comfortable spending.
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Old January 9, 2014, 11:36 AM   #65
ClydeFrog
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Snobs & Mall Ninjas....

I think some people are "snobs" about certain brands or products but they have a valid reason for their feelings/opinions.
Some uneducated consumers may buy a item thinking it's a value or a "great deal" when it's not.

I had a security co-worker show me his new "high tech" white-light he bought at a gun show. The tactical flashlight broke & he could not get it to work correctly.
Are you a snob or a smuggy buggy if you only want brands like 5.11, Surefire, Fenix, or Streamlight? Because they are designed to work under hard use, real world conditions?

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Old January 9, 2014, 12:01 PM   #66
buck460XVR
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The issue is not about having a preference for one brand or the other. The issue is not about appreciating the increase in quality/workmanship that sometimes comes with an increase in price. The issue is thinking folks that have opinions and choices other than yours are somehow inferior, either by intelligence, social status or take home pay. There is never a valid reason to be a "snob".
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Old January 9, 2014, 12:42 PM   #67
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The richest man I know hunts with a 30 year old Remington 700. Neurosurgeon friend hunts with an old wood stocked rifle and a Nikon Pro Staff. And, he is one of the most serious and dedicated hunters I know. People with real money don't need to impress or be impressed by anybody.
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Old January 9, 2014, 12:48 PM   #68
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeFrog
Are you a snob or a smuggy buggy if you only want brands like 5.11, Surefire, Fenix, or Streamlight? Because they are designed to work under hard use, real world conditions?
Once again, what you OWN has nothing whatsoever to do with being a snob. Zero, zip, nada, nothing.

Being a snob is looking down your nose at anybody who owns something DIFFERENT, which you of course view as INFERIOR because it doesn't (in your mind or reality) meet the criteria that YOU have set, which in all likelihood has little or NOTHING to do with the criteria being used by some other person.

Being a snob would be putting down the PERSON, directly or by implication, because of the PRODUCT that they bought. If the argument for a high-dollar item is so compelling, why can't it be made with facts about the high-dollar item and without the scare tactics or Ad Hominum attacks or implications?

The flashlight, for example. Maybe I don't need "hard use, real world conditions". Maybe I want a cheap light that looks cool and I don't really care if it breaks?

I know a guy who sells BBQ grills as part of his business. They are freakin' awesome grills. They cost $3,000+, some are over $5,000. He's always telling me that it'll be the last grill I ever buy and I'll be replacing that $100 Wal*Mart grill every two years. He's right too, except I can replace the Wal*Mart grill every 2 years for the rest of my life and I won't spend what his grill costs. I grill 2 or 3 times a year. Is his grill worth $3000? Probably. Is his grill worth $3000 to me? Nope.
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Old January 9, 2014, 03:41 PM   #69
gc70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
Being a snob is looking down your nose at anybody who owns embraces something DIFFERENT, which you of course view as INFERIOR because it doesn't (in your mind or reality) meet the criteria that YOU have set, which in all likelihood has little or NOTHING to do with the criteria being used by some other person.
Being a snob is not limited to product preferences, but also extends to preferences about nearly anything (how you carry a CCW, the grip you use to hold a gun, etc.).
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Old January 10, 2014, 04:40 PM   #70
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Gun snobs?

I haven't come across people that call leupold and aimpoints junk that would astound me. Now up until the new models of the mark 4s, mark 6s, and mark 8s leupold had been lacking on some desired features with tactical scopes especially for the price.

I don't think owning expensive equipment makes you a snob it's simply how your prioritize your income. I own 200$ optics to 2500$ optics. 600$ rifles to 3000$ rifles. It's simply preference of what I like, use, and plan to do with them.

Simply the attitude is what I think the OP is referring to. I have friends that think I'm insane for owning a USO SN-3, doesn't bother me. They ask my opinion on what I would get with this or that I ask them their desired budget and go from there. Would never say what they want is junk less they really were looking at junk (countersniper). My point is I never try to impose that my way is the only way.

Personally my USO kind of reached my limit with an optic. S&B is going up and I would have a hard time dropping 3000+. That said with more affordable options like the bushy HDMR at 1100$ and ERS at 1500$ with most of the same features, it's hard to want to spend for another USO. Though there is a level of pride for me with USO cause it's completely made in house 100% USA.

Last edited by Blackops_2; January 10, 2014 at 04:48 PM.
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Old January 10, 2014, 05:18 PM   #71
jmr40
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A $500 Glock is as much handgun as I care to own.

A $250 used 870 is perfectly acceptable to me, although I use and prefer my Benelli M-1 bought used for $600.

I could be perfectly content with some $400 hunting rifles and used such rifles most of my life. I'm at the point where I can afford better now. My bolt rifles are the guns I use most and I have 3-4 that I've invested $1000+. All but 1 were bought used and money spent on modifications. I certainly don't look down on anyone who cannot afford a more expensive rifle. But I can afford it and it is worth it to me.

A $300-$400 scope is all I can ever imagine I'd need and could be perfectly content with a lot of $200 scopes.

I'm sure many consider me a gun snob. Others consider me to be cheap.

Where you stand on an issue depends on where you sit.
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Old January 10, 2014, 05:25 PM   #72
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It isn't limited to just guns as we all know. Cars, dogs, horses, watches, alma mater, wimmin... heck I bet even stamp collectors have a few snobs in their midst. I mean... STAMPS? (I know there's a few "stamp" collectors here as well )

My dog's better than your dog. The putdown, be it soft or hard, is always funny to witness or be a part of from one POV. (usually the putdownee in my case )
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Old January 12, 2014, 07:43 PM   #73
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There are snobs and then there are are folks that have learned thru experience. A person can be one, the other, both or neither. I see it all the time. Think some of the S&W, Glock or 1911 guys can be bad? Just try the popular rimfire site or or airgun forums. They can make life almost unbearable.
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Old January 12, 2014, 08:35 PM   #74
TINCANBANDIT
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yeah....guns are one thing, I can sometimes understand the spending on a special model or one with unique options, but the optics? I've seen people spend more on optics for their AR than you could buy a whole new AR for
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Old January 12, 2014, 08:52 PM   #75
Kev
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Like any hobby..
There are multiple enthusiast levels.
And thousands of variables that include finances, knowledge, peer pressure (snobs?) family or spouse and even location.

I have seen the snobbery more in the sport fishing world where if you didn't have a $400.00 custom wrapped tuna stick, then anybody catching a nice albacore on a off the shelf stick was just lucky.
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