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Old January 7, 2014, 07:01 AM   #26
BillyJack3
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With the declining prices of today's ARs that are not made of plastic, there's simply no reason to get one. Weight? When you can build a a sub 6lb AR with quality parts, why would you consider the alternative?
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Old January 7, 2014, 10:58 PM   #27
Jim243
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While I don't totally disagree with Billyjack3, I don't see the standard AR's price going to match those of the Carbon Fiber one's. The margin is just not there for the mfg to drop their prices that low. Does $100 or $200 dollars make that much a difference to the buyer? I don't know that is up to each purchaser.

It's hard to believe that Glocks are now 40 years old, but like the current line of plastic pistols (everyone makes them now) we are going to see more and more rifles come out in synthetic stocks, it's hard to find a bolt gun in wood any more, so why not plastic AR's. I can think of a few that I would like to have SCAR-17, ARX-160, 4095 TS (Oh I have one of those), PMR-30.

So what does the near future bring, don't know, I just have to wait for the 2014 Shot Show.

Good Shooting.
Jim
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Old January 7, 2014, 11:18 PM   #28
Fishbed77
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I don't see the standard AR's price going to match those of the Carbon Fiber one's. The margin is just not there for the mfg to drop their prices that low.
I take it you haven't been to PSA's website lately.


Quote:
so why not plastic AR's. I can think of a few that I would like to have SCAR-17, ARX-160, 4095 TS (Oh I have one of those), PMR-30.
None of those rifles are ARs.

Every one of those firearms was designed from the start to have a polymer receiver.
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Old January 7, 2014, 11:22 PM   #29
Jim243
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Just went there, the cheapest was $819.99 and most others were out of stock.

I paid $599.00 for my Carbon 15 at Cabelas and it came with a hard gun case, 2 - 30 round mags, a Bushnell Red dot, risers and lock. Thanks for making my point.

Jim

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Last edited by Jim243; January 7, 2014 at 11:33 PM.
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Old January 8, 2014, 12:30 AM   #30
Ritz
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Same here. I paid only a few bucks more for mine and got the same deal. There's a couple of folks here that grasp for a helping of schadenfreude when they see polymer and AR in the same sentence. They can't grasp that people are buying them and are happy with the price point and quality.

**shrug**

We love ours.
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Old January 8, 2014, 12:08 PM   #31
Fishbed77
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Quote:
Just went there, the cheapest was $819.99 and most others were out of stock.
PSA's inventory turns over pretty rapidly. Take a look at that rifle package for $899.99. It includes a $400 EOTech optic. That equals to a complete mil-spec (minus select-fire FCG and 14.5" barrel) AR for ~$500.

Also, PSA often has rifle kits for $499. Toss in a $100 or less stripped 7075 lower, and there you go.

Yes, some very basic assembly of the lower is required, but that's part of the fun!

Quote:
They can't grasp that people are buying them and are happy with the price point and quality.
There's nothing wrong with buying a Carbon-15 (or any other polymer-receiver) AR and being happy with it for what it is. The only issue here is the delusion that most polymer AR lowers equal the quality and durability of forged 7075 AR lowers. (FYI - there have been some very crappy aluminum lowers put out there over the years as well).


.

Last edited by Fishbed77; January 8, 2014 at 12:15 PM.
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Old January 8, 2014, 12:32 PM   #32
Ritz
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I'd take PSA a little more seriously if they were better at running their inventory and keeping things in stock. For example, EVERY rifle kit is "temporarily out of stock." Many of the other categories of AR parts are mostly out of stock as well. Keep in mind that $899 is a ~40% price premium over the C-15 with red dot package.

However, this is off topic.

For people who want to roll their own rifle and have the luxury of time, that might be a good option. I'm assuming that this person would also have the know-how and the tools to do the job (additional expense for the latter). My comments on the price/quality of the C-15 are ON topic and I'd continue to recommend it for people on a budget that want a very light and reliable (from my experience) AR that they can take out of the box and shoot.

Best,

Last edited by Ritz; January 8, 2014 at 12:47 PM.
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Old January 8, 2014, 12:32 PM   #33
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I know only one person that has a Bushmaster Carbon 15. She's a 77 year old widow lady who probably doesn't weigh 120 pounds.

She lives alone on a ranch about 24 miles from town, and wanted an "all around ranch rifle”.
Coyotes, badgers, prairie dogs, skunks and so on. She said she had an old 22, but wanted something else.

I met her when she came to one of my classes after she bought the gun, on recommendation of a friend of hers that lives abotu 2 miles from her, and had taken some of my classes in the past.

I have to say, from what I have seen of that carbine, it was just right for the "mission statement" that she wanted to fulfill.

She only came one day, but it was a long day. Almost 12 hours. She fired almost 350 rounds of ammo in that day and by sundown she was doing very well with her new toy. Even at 77 and of small stature, I think that old lady would be a force to recon with.

I taught her to strip and clean the rifle, and how to shoot it from various positions. I was very pleased that at her age she could still get into a sitting and a kneeling position but getting up took her a bit more time than it did others in the class. (Working the ranch is not something that lets a person get fat and lazy)

The reason I wanted to point this all out is simple. The C-15 was perfect for her needs. VERY light weight even after I put a Weaver K2.5 on it for her. Very easy to operate. Quite accurate and low recoil.

The argument that you can get a “better” metal gun for the same money is maybe missing the point here.

#1, I have not been convinced that the metal ones are indeed better. If we tortured them and abused them I would bet the Mil-Spec probably is better, but I can’t say that for sure. But for her mission statement (#1 thing she wanted was more power than a 22LR with very light weight) I would say the C15 was probably the very best gun she could have selected.

I have never seen her again, but our mutual friend said she’s doing great, and she loves her AR.

She would make a good ad for the NRA in my opinion.
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Old January 8, 2014, 08:12 PM   #34
HKFan9
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For people who want to roll their own rifle and have the luxury of time, that might be a good option. I'm assuming that this person would also have the know-how and the tools to do the job (additional expense for the latter). My comments on the price/quality of the C-15 are ON topic and I'd continue to recommend it for people on a budget that want a very light and reliable (from my experience) AR that they can take out of the box and shoot.
I can build a stripped lower on my kitchen table using only basic tools in less than 30mins. All I use is a pair of pliers with masking tape wrapped around them for the two roll pins, and a $5 castle nut wrench. Which if you don't care about scratching the castle nut, you can just use a pair of channel locks.

We are still on topic to the point for the same money we are making a BETTER recommendation.

I just bought another stripped lower and LPK for $80 off PSA they have some really good deals right now. That + a $400 complete upper and you have a $480 AR-15 and you'd still have extra money left over to buy whatever Bushnell red-dot you want. I could probably build it even cheaper piecing the upper together myself, but if you wanted quick and easy, I would take $480 all day for a better quality gun then going into Walmart or where ever and buying a C15.

Magazines? I only use Pmags in all of my AR's which I probably have over 70 of them at the moment so not so much an issue for me, but for the $10-$14 they cost, seems like a better idea than using the traditional mags.
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Old January 8, 2014, 08:19 PM   #35
Fishbed77
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I'd take PSA a little more seriously if they were better at running their inventory and keeping things in stock.
Then you must not take BCM, Brownells, MidwayUSA, Rainier Arms, or pretty much any other online retailer selling AR kits or parts very seriously, because almost all of them have trouble keeping kits in stock. That's the nature of the beast.

Getting on PSA's e-mail distribution list is a must.
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Old January 8, 2014, 10:09 PM   #36
Ritz
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I see. If someone comes to me and says "I drove by my local car lot and they have a car that I'm interested in today. What do you think of that car and the price?" And you say "No way man, buy the body from this lot, the engine from another lot when they have them in stock sometime in the future, and then put them together in your driveway and you'll have a car that I like better and you might save a few dollars. Just be patient and you'll have that car RSN. Everyone should know how to build a car."

lol...whatever.
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Old January 9, 2014, 05:39 AM   #37
HKFan9
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Well your example is outlandish because you can't build a car in under an hour. But your example half works. If someone is looking at said car from a dealer and I know of a better deal why would I not tell them about the better deal. I just got a lower and LPK from them and it cost me $80 I can go to numerous sites right now and buy a completed upper and have a <$500 AR that's worlds better in quality then a C15.

Even if I had to wait for it, I'm not some brat on Xmas morning, I have patience I don't mind waiting for a better gun or better deal, but most everything you need is in stock right now. I got a lower n LPK from PSA and I got a $75 complete upper from BCM. I already have a spare barrel sitting at home. I just need to order another BCG when I have the extra cash, still paying off Xmas presents. So this AR will cost me next to nothing. Even without the spare barrel at my house I could complete it for under or at $500 which is cheaper than a C15 costs. If your happy with your C15 that's great and I'm glad you told the OP that, but I can't comprehend why you take offense to someone offering up a cheaper and what many would consider a better alternative other than your personal feelings toward your gun.
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Old January 9, 2014, 11:22 AM   #38
Skans
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The Carbon 15 is simply ahead of its time. Folks still want their AR's to come in beercans instead of soda bottles.
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Old January 9, 2014, 02:42 PM   #39
Ritz
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Heh.

There's plenty of business to go around for all the various manufacturers.

Best,
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Old January 9, 2014, 07:07 PM   #40
HKFan9
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The Carbon 15 is simply ahead of its time. Folks still want their AR's to come in beercans instead of soda bottles.
The poly recievers are the least of my concern. Now if Bushmaster wanted to put better quality internals in the C15.. say like they do on every other model they make.... then it MIGHT be a different story.

You can pull the trigger group out and compare it, they are cheaper made parts, the hammer is not even solid, and yes I have seen them break. The metal rail that is molded into the top of the receiver also comes loose on occasion, I sent a few of those to Bushmaster as well.

I don't know all the specs on Bushy's but I would guess the barrel is of softer steel given the price point.. well I should say older price point as they are way too priced for what they are, they are chrome lined however so that's a plus.

Point is I have no issue with the polymer, even though admittedly I think they are a poor example of a Poly frame,

Heck for arguments sake you could even buy a stripped polymer lower for $50 and build a better and cheaper gun off that. My point is you can get a BETTER gun for a BETTER price, poly or not, Bushmaster or the dealers have that gun priced too high after the scare, and its filled with junk internals. If it is a range toy your gonna shoot a few hundred rounds out of a year great, still there are better deals out there right now, I fail to see the argument, other than your emotionally attached to your rifle. I owed a C15 and I will be the first person to say it was made like crap, to sell at a price point.
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Old January 9, 2014, 10:21 PM   #41
Ritz
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You seem very emotionally invested in this.

*shrug*

Get one of those $49 lower parts kits from your boys at PSA or Bravo Company. Problem solved.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15...20-%20semi.htm

Don't hate the player...hate the game.

Last edited by Ritz; January 9, 2014 at 10:30 PM.
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Old January 9, 2014, 11:57 PM   #42
HKFan9
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Again you show your ignorance on the subject matter. The DPMS LPK STILL isn't the same internals as your C15. Take a close look at the insides of your C15 then either ask a buddy or go to a shop and ask to see the inside of a different Bushmaster rifle. You will notice they are not the same....Why? because they cut corners to make the C15.

I am not emotionally attached to the rifle and defend it at all costs like some. I owned one, and I knew exactly what it is.... a price point firearm. Price Point meaning the key feature to sell the gun is the low price point. The lower it is the more corners that need to be cut. I have been on the range shooting them with the Remington/Bushmaster/DPMS Rep's, and they say the same thing about the C15 as they did when I asked why the 783 was not replacing the 770. They simply said the lower price rate sells a ton of them, despite the known issues. In fact you can keep your eyes peeled, they are going to re-work the 770 design some because of the known issues with the action sometime this year.

I am sorry if you are upset you bought into the gun thinking it uses the same parts as other Bushmasters as your ignorance to link a DPMS LPK shows. When I get back to work from vacation I can even take a photo for you of a C15's internals side by side with another Bushmaster or DPMS.

Again I am glad you are happy with the firearm you purchased, I admittedly never had any problems with mine, but I was realistic about what it was and didn't try to pass it off as something it is not. It ended up scoring me a Saiga 12 with $250 extras in parts, and after a few hours of elbow grease when I was done converting it, I sold the Saiga for $2000, so my $400 on the C15 investment was well worth it, so I can't completely hate the gun.

Right now its a buyers market for AR's because everyone is loaded up on parts and receivers and rifles because of orders they place during the rush on them. They are not selling like they were 10 months ago, so prices are falling because inventory levels are going through the roof.

For the $500 - $600 they used to sell for they were an OK gun. I have seen them priced at over $700 these days, it is way too much on that firearm. During the scare I saw them selling for upwards of $3000 online at gunbroker and such... I feel awfully sorry for the saps who dropped that much coin on any given production AR, let alone the C15.

I still cannot see why you are offended about someone stating the fact that there are better deals out there. To each his own I suppose, you are happy with your rifles and I am happy with my rifles.
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Old January 10, 2014, 08:09 AM   #43
Ritz
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I'm not offended or upset. I'm just laughing at your dogged pursuit and now your personal attacks. Lovely.

You said you didn't like the internals. OK, lower parts kits are cheap from the same sources you and others cited. Your disquiet seems to come from much deeper.

Heh, whatever man. I think the OP got the info he was looking for from both "sides".

Last edited by Ritz; January 10, 2014 at 09:02 AM.
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Old January 10, 2014, 08:41 AM   #44
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritz
I'd take PSA a little more seriously if they were better at running their inventory and keeping things in stock.
I have purchased from PSA all within the last couple of years. They are not perfect, can take a while to ship, and do not always get orders correct, but they have good prices and reasonable quality. Their published inventory changes daily so one can find some interesting items with frequent checking.

I understand that some people find it mysterious that anyone would use a polymer lower, particularly where one can now find aluminum lowers for $50. However, a lot of the a our hobby revolves around the new, novel and different.

One advantage of a polymer lower one does not notice until he goes back to an aluminum lower is that the aluminum is cold. So, aside from being lighter, the material is more comfortable to the touch.
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Old January 10, 2014, 03:37 PM   #45
HKFan9
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It was less of a personal attack and more of the fact that you are ignorant to the facts of what you were talking about.

If you felt attacked I am sorry.

Quote:
You said you didn't like the internals. OK, lower parts kits are cheap from the same sources you and others cited. Your disquiet seems to come from much deeper.
I understand what you are saying but at that rate since I am going to spend any amount of time with a lower I would still just buy a new lower and built it, rather than swap parts out.

To Zukiphile, my distaste for the C15 really had nothing to do with the Poly receivers even though I have seen their uppers and lowers break, but the breakages I saw were operator induced.

In fact I like odd ball guns, polymer or aluminum or steel, I even own a FNH FiveseveN

I have seen the C15 upper break in two ways, the top rail that is molded or almost glued into the poly resin came loose on a few examples, not the end of the world, but obviously it would screw up any sighting system. The second way I saw on two separate occasions guys crack them when they decided to bubba it up and over torque the barrel. Even with an aluminum upper you still have to be careful when torquing down a steel barrel nut onto aluminum.

I have seen a number of their lowers break near the rear take down pin / buffer tube extension. This is common on a lot of Poly lowers, admittedly I would guess this was due to guys doing something stupid rather than the gun itself. However I have seen aluminum AR's basically experience the same thing.

The poly mystic of the gun didn't sway me one way or another, I bought it due to a good deal, like most people do. Granted I got mine used for about half of retail price on them.

I am a firm believer in all guns will fail eventually, they are man made machines, but they all were not created equally. Working with firearms all day, with an emphasis on broken ones makes me also a firm believer in you pay for what you get.

Now don't get me wrong, there are hordes of bad aluminum receivers out there as well that are made poorly or out of spec. I was building a rifle for a buddy off an older Aerospace lower and the magazine catch channel was not in spec and the mag release would stick every single time.

PS I also prefer the cold metal feeling of the aluminum over the poly.
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