The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 3, 2014, 10:18 AM   #1
motorhead0922
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 507
Police shooting dash cam video

This dramatic video of a recent local shooting was just released.

http://www.news-leader.com/article/2...fatal-shooting

Wow, there's all kinds of topics to discuss about this video. Some posibilities:
1. Shooting while retreating, and falling down (about 1:55 in the video).
2. Use of flashlights
3. Non-use of cover. Yikes.

To me, this was suicide-by-cop. The guy has been a menace to society for over 15 years.

Some days it's tough to be a cop.
__________________
NRA, SAF, ACLDN, IDPA

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry
motorhead0922 is offline  
Old January 3, 2014, 10:30 AM   #2
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 526
he asked, he received.

you may now go back to your armchair.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old January 3, 2014, 10:52 AM   #3
ezmiraldo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2013
Location: land of the free
Posts: 142
Yes, sometimes it totally sucks to be a cop and having to deal with crazy psychos who can take your life in an instant. I wonder if they were justified in shooting the suspect the second he put his hands up and assumed shooting stance (in the very beginning of the video)? Cops didn't do it, which shows A LOT of restraint on their part, imho.
__________________
--
sig p226
savage 111
ezmiraldo is offline  
Old January 3, 2014, 11:18 AM   #4
skoro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,752
Quote:
The guy has been a menace to society for over 15 years.
One less hardheaded fool in that community...
skoro is offline  
Old January 3, 2014, 11:20 AM   #5
motorhead0922
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 507
ezmiraldo, I agree. Several times throughout the video he assumed a shooting stance and swept the officers. I don't know why they didn't shoot earlier.

Did you watch the second, shorter video? He was asking for it.
__________________
NRA, SAF, ACLDN, IDPA

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry
motorhead0922 is offline  
Old January 3, 2014, 12:20 PM   #6
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,955
Definitely a good shoot, a sadly clear illustration of suicide by cop. The shooting was justified because -- given what the officers knew at the time -- the man presented a immediate threat to their lives. People are uncomfortable knowing this, but the fact that they later discovered he was unarmed isn't relevant. All that matters is what the officer knew (or reasonably should have known) at the moment he fired the fatal shots.

One interesting factor, much reported in the press: one of the other officers yelled, "He doesn't have anything!" less than a second before the first officer opened fire and killed the guy.

The officer who fired was almost certainly experiencing the physical and physiological effects of extreme-stress reaction, which can include auditory exclusion. Auditory exclusion makes it literally impossible to hear other sounds when you are focused tightly on the threat to your life.

In addition to this, because there was a lot going on in this high stress situation, with the compressed time of less than a second from utterance to shooting, the officer may not have had enough time to mentally process the information even if he did hear it.

Finally, "he doesn't have anything" sounds ambiguous even to me, sitting at home in my easy chair. That would add to the mental processing time, I think.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old January 3, 2014, 12:31 PM   #7
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
Another reason why I always try to treat the cops with the respect I was taught to give them. For me, I'll give them the respect and then individually they can lose it through their actions, but they get the benefit of the doubt as far as I am concerned.

I don't want their job and I am damn glad they are out there doing it.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old January 3, 2014, 01:43 PM   #8
sfwusc
Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2013
Posts: 72
Cops have a tough job. No doubt.

You then have the bad apples that don't realize that everything could be video taped by cell phone. I don't know how many videos I have seen posted on line of officers crossing the line at traffic stops.



The good ones deserve our respect.
sfwusc is offline  
Old January 3, 2014, 05:16 PM   #9
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 336
I think the officers showed amazing restraint to the point of being some combination of brave/foolish.

I cannot imagine someone "pointing" a hand at me, covered with a shirt or towel, in a classic shooting posture, and not concluding that a gun was about to be fired.
zombietactics is offline  
Old January 4, 2014, 12:20 AM   #10
USCS
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Posts: 60
It's never a good situation dealing with some loon who wants to die. Those kind of split second decisions are the stuff of nightmares. Hopefully the Cop will be ok.
USCS is online now  
Old January 4, 2014, 01:10 AM   #11
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Hot wash....

There are a few points to consider for events like this critical incident.

1) In fluid, high stress events like this, Id have a SOP or training policy that the LE officer(trooper/officer/agent/deputy/etc) who initiated the contact or started the traffic stop be the only officer/deputy who yells commands/instructions. Multiple deputies/officers yelling adds to the confusion & stress. Unless a senior officer or supervisor gets on scene & takes control, the first LE officer should do the talking-negotiating.
2) Train to deploy gear & accessories quickly. If you watch closely you see the uniformed deputies work the white-lights, slings, radios, etc. Emotions run high & stress can be a factor but knowing where things are & how to access them smoothly is important.
A recent gun magazine article advised armed professionals to train to perform magazine reloads w/o looking at the weapon. Is that easy? No. But keeping an eye on the scene or subject(s) is critical.
3) If K9 was available, I would have attempted to let the subject stay contained & release a working dog on him. I've seen police K9s at crime scenes first-hand. They can be a great way to deter a non-compliant subject & it's safer for the officers on scene.
4) I would avoid saying or using slang, insults, terms of endearment(bud, pal, brother, son, etc). It might confuse or irritate the unstable subject. Some working cops can say its a good control or patrol technique but I disagree. I think it's condescending & not always a practical way to de-escalate a critical incident.
5) There's safety in numbers. In some points of the incident, the cops bunch up then seem to cross each other's line of fire.
In the part where the subject moved away from the road & further into the weeds/treeline, the uniformed deputies should have armed themselves with patrol rifles or police shotguns on either side & bracketed the subject in.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 4, 2014, 04:52 AM   #12
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,248
Notice the cop trip and fall backwards.

Under stress that can happen. What you plan and train for is never enough cause Brother Murphy is always waiting for you to make a mistake.

And yes, if someone points what maybe a gun, you cannot just sit there and wait to see if it is a real one.

I bet this was a suicide by cop.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old January 4, 2014, 08:45 AM   #13
motorhead0922
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 507
I wonder about the cop's statement "I'll shoot you in the face". I kinda understand why he said it, to maybe shock the suspect into realizing what could happen, but it seems ill-advised. It sounds bad on the video to an anti-cop person and didn't seem to help anything, especially with a person that seemed to want to die.
__________________
NRA, SAF, ACLDN, IDPA

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry
motorhead0922 is offline  
Old January 4, 2014, 09:28 AM   #14
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Posts, points...

I agree with Pax's remarks & post 13.
Stress, emotion(fear, anger, rage, etc), injury(both real or implied) & other factors can distort events. This makes them harder to deal with.

In the high-profile NYPD Diallo incident where a young unarmed immigrant was shot at 44 times by 4 plain-clothes NYPD officers, a few of the officers stated later they fired because they thought one of the NYPD officers got shot in the incident. He had in fact, fell over by accident as he ran towards Diallo's location.
Diallo, who assumed the police officers were INS agents pulled out his wallet & the rattled NYPD officers started to fire on him.

I'd add that towards the end of the video, you can see the uniformed deputies ease up & decompress. Id wait until the subject is completely searched & in custody before Id relax. Stress & adrenenline can be high but you can't let your guard down only because a subject isn't moving or there are more officers on scene.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 4, 2014, 10:50 AM   #15
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,012
I don't revel in the death of any human being, but given that this man both claimed to have a gun, and assumed a shooting stance and covered his hands in an obvious effort to create the impression that he was armed, the officers obviously had no choice.

To reinforce a point made by Pax, the news report says that only 0.4 seconds elapsed between another officer saying that the guy was unarmed and the officer firing. It typically takes around a second to process new information and stop an action that is initiated, like pulling a trigger, and that doesn't even consider the ambiguity of the wording.

I have to think that the officers who worked from behind cover took a wiser course than the fellow who walked around without cover and approached the BG, but he could have had concerns about the man escaping into the woods, returning to the house where he had already threatened someone, or going to another nearby house and creating a hostage situation. IOW, not enough info to criticize. I'm just glad all the LEOs got to go home in one piece and none of their families are mourning their loss.
TailGator is offline  
Old January 4, 2014, 04:59 PM   #16
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
TG's post....

I agree with Tailgator.
As a LE or security officer, you can't take chances sometimes. A threat(real or fabricated) must be taken seriously. I wouldn't doubt that the subject's family or wife would file a wrongful death action if he was killed by the LE officers but they'd be cleared.
A group of narcotics deputies near my location who shot at a drug suspect a reported 150 times settled with the subject's family rather than face a protracted legal battle.
All the LE officers were cleared by the Sheriff's Office Professional Standards & State Atty's Office but they still faced civil actions.

In another incident about 6 years ago, a violent subject was barricaded in a swamp/wooded area & was shot by several SWAT/K9 officers. The armed subject even shot at the working dogs trying to find him. He too was killed by LE. The following investigation showed the same man was a known contract killer for several major drug cartels/street gangs. The DEA had connected the subject to many deaths both in the US & South America.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 6, 2014, 03:06 PM   #17
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 630
That incident took place one county south of my home. Saw the video on the local news and it was immediately apparent that it was a suicide by cop, haven't heard any hand wringing or complaing about police violence around here, general concensus seems to be "Well if you don't want to get shot by a cop, don't pretend you have a gun and charge at them". I was happy to see one of the officers arrive with a long gun, glimpse looked like an AR type rifle. K9 units are not common in the are where it happened, could have taken hours to get a K9 unit there. All in all in the end, my opinion is, it was a bad deal, officers forced to shoot someone, the officers certainly would have preferred that he lay down and surrender, but the subject made his choice, and all the officers went home to their families. My thoughts and prayers go to the officer that fired, even though it seems to be a good shoot, he will no doubt have some personal emotions to come to grips with.
Panfisher is offline  
Old January 7, 2014, 10:45 PM   #18
peacefulgary
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 524
Quote:
Yes, sometimes it totally sucks to be a cop and having to deal with crazy psychos who can take your life in an instant.
Everyone who deals with "the public" on a daily basis either knowingly or unknowingly deals with "crazy psychos who can take your life in an instant".

At least the cop gets to carry a gun.

Most public businesses don't allow their staff to carry firearms, and sometimes not even knives.
peacefulgary is offline  
Old January 7, 2014, 11:08 PM   #19
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Post #18....

I agree with post #18.
In 2014, not all private business owners can or will take the proper measures to protect the staff, visitors or customers.
Some of that is due to the laws or local statues. Many times it's due to insurance policies or a business manager/CEO's personal beliefs.
Any business today should at least have CCTVs or security cameras available to document any events.
Security issues & safety have become a growth industry for lawyers/crime prevention experts.
Wrongful death lawsuits & civil actions that involve thefts, sex crimes, robbery, etc are more common.
I've heard & read media items of several lawsuits brought by victims/victim family members due to poor security/protective service issues.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 9, 2014, 06:04 AM   #20
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 263
The key take away is if you dont want to be shot by the police then stay still, dont run, dont reach for anything unless told, keep your hands in sight and be cool....calm...collected. This video is training for all on what not to do when dealing with the police.
johnelmore is offline  
Old January 9, 2014, 10:12 AM   #21
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,466
Quote:
One interesting factor, much reported in the press: one of the other officers yelled, "He doesn't have anything!" less than a second before the first officer opened fire and killed the guy.
pax, I read your comments and agree. I would also add that the cop that fired may have reached a very different conclusion than the officer who yelled, believing that the officer that yelled could not see what he was seeing and what he was seeing was a threat (i.e., that there was a weapon).

I also agree that the statement was ambiguous. "He doesn't have anything" could mean he doesn't have a weapon or that he doesn't have the mental fortitude to fight. The statement was also being said at the same time the shootee was making his charge at the officer. So the situation had escalated dramatically and dynamically before the statement was made.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; January 9, 2014 at 03:52 PM.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old January 9, 2014, 03:11 PM   #22
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Post #20....

I disagree with post #20 re; intent.
While the advice is valid & a good way for a rational mature adult to resolve a conflict or communicate with LE, this male subject does not fit that category.

I can tell you honestly from LE & security work, many times subjects are not thinking clearly or behaving calm & rational. This may be due to emotion(anger, stress, fear, sadness, etc), intoxication(drugs-alcohol) or mental health issues.
It's quick & easy to say; stay calm and relax, don't be jittery or make "furtive" movements around LE but some people can't or won't do it.
Those are the subjects who are dangerous & require extra caution when dealing with.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12251 seconds with 7 queries