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Old January 2, 2014, 12:11 PM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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Does access to semis cut down on full auto homemades

When Mike Irwin posted about the new Remington pistol, I went to the site and found this interesting report:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-type-pistols/

It's a nice blog, BTW. However, interestingly - there were quite a few reports of homemade fully auto guns. The Australians are shocked that their bans against law abiding citizens didn't stop these types. Also, other countries are seeing homemade fully auto guns.

So I wonder if in the USA - does the access to very nice semis, cut down on the incentive for home made guns - easily fully auto that then become crime guns. The Australians see them used in drive-bys.

Is this some strange unintended consequence? Just a thought.
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Old January 2, 2014, 12:26 PM   #2
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I like the threaded barrel.
ETA: it's probably 1/8" Schedule 80 pipe. 1/4" Sch 80 iron pipe would something like .32 LC, and 3/8" Sch 80 for some kind of non-magnum .44

It looks like an interesting project... (not to imply that iron pipe will make a safe gun barrel)
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Old January 2, 2014, 12:36 PM   #3
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Why that's shocking, shocking I say.
Did they actually think that, with a stroke of the pen, all desire for, and knowledge of, firearms would somehow vanish from the human mind?
What idjits.
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Old January 2, 2014, 01:52 PM   #4
Bartholomew Roberts
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If there are harsh penalties for any type of banned firearm, you might as well go for the gold. Hell, the NY SAFE Act makes possession of a banned semi-auto a more serious crime than possessing a machinegun. Why wouldn't you go the rest of the way at that point?
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Old January 2, 2014, 02:09 PM   #5
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Onerous restrictions create black markets. That's nothing new. It happens in the UK as well.

As to the main question, I doubt it. The guy who's going to make a clandestine machine gun isn't the same guy who's just looking for a legitimate self-defense firearm.
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Old January 2, 2014, 05:52 PM   #6
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I think the reason you see so many full auto guns in places like Australia is simply because they are easier to make. Notice that you don't see any select-fire, closed-bolt assault rifles. It's predominantly full auto only, straight blowback SMGs. Or single shot derringers. Those are considerably easier to make than any semi auto.

If the penalty for manufacturing guns is gonna be just as severe regardless of what you're making, you go for the stuff that's cheap and easy to manufacture so you can turn a better profit when you sell it to your local drug dealers and gang members.

So it's not really a lack of semi's that encourages manufacture of full autos. It's the lack of guns in general, that encourages the manufacture of whatever is easiest with the limited equipment most clandestine gun builders have.
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Old January 2, 2014, 06:03 PM   #7
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The dirty little secret that nobody talks about is that making a decent home-made semi-auto is considerably harder than making a decent home-made full-auto.

The semi-auto needs a separate firing pin, a disconnector, and generally a fairly complicated trigger system.

A full-auto just needs a bolt with a nubbin on it to act as the firing pin and a trigger that catches and holds the bolt open unless it's pulled.

What it boils down to is that if there is sufficient demand for multi-shot firearms to generate an illegal market in home-made guns, it makes sense that full-autos would be more common products than semi-autos.

<<<Or just read Nickel-Plated's post directly above mine. >>>
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Old January 2, 2014, 06:07 PM   #8
Glenn E. Meyer
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That was my point, I think. In the USA, bad people can get semis. Thus, we have no need for a homemade market. The Australians by cleverly banning such, started an illegal market with easier made full autos.
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Old January 2, 2014, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
The semi-auto needs a separate firing pin, a disconnector, and generally a fairly complicated trigger system.
A home-made semi-auto doesn't need a firing pin any more than a home-made full auto. Easy enough to build an open-bolt semi-auto, although as you said the trigger system is slightly more complicated, requiring at a minimum one extra part for a disconnector.

However, if you're talking about building an ATF-approved LEGAL semi-auto - then it will require firing from a closed bolt and thus a firing pin.
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Old January 2, 2014, 08:21 PM   #10
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That was my point, I think. In the USA, bad people can get semis. Thus, we have no need for a homemade market. The Australians by cleverly banning such, started an illegal market with easier made full autos.
Glenn, I see your point and I think it's plausible. Either way, if the point has merit we're still talking about guns used by criminals to commit crimes or to carry as self defense against the rest of the criminal underworld because of their misdeeds amongst their peers. So... either way, it's still a gun that's not used responsibly for the most part.

Of course, it's entirely possible that there may be a few people in Australia that'll risk being a convicted felon just for the cool factor of having a high fire-power gun, whereas our laws are lax enough that it would be stupid to risk the scarlet F just for a illegal full-auto hose when we have semi's with trigger bumps, slide fire stocks, and drum magazines being legal.

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Old January 2, 2014, 08:30 PM   #11
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Legislative restrictions create markets for criminals to profit. Prohibition in the US led to the rise of organized crime. The war on drugs has created much violence. Any weapons ban will allow those who ignore laws to have what law abiding people lack.
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Old January 3, 2014, 08:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
So I wonder if in the USA - does the access to very nice semis, cut down on the incentive for home made guns
Well, we do have access to full autos too, and at least for now it basically just requires sufficient money. So, there is really no need for folks who want a full-auto for non-criminal activities to simply save up and buy one.

Full autos are generally less efficient than a good semi-auto. They waste ammo and they are hard to keep on target. Some submachine guns perform a little better than automatic light rifles like the AR or AK, but then you are sacrificing distance.

We live in a gun-knowledgeable country. As a collective group, we have far more experience with semi and full auto weapons than do any other group of civilians. Most people, if given the choice between owning one full-auto only and a semi-auto only in the same style weapon would choose semi-auto.

I will admit, however, that full auto is down right fun! Not practical, but fun!!!
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Old January 3, 2014, 10:21 AM   #13
Glenn E. Meyer
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My emphasis was on home made full autos for crime, not for law abiding folks. Given the unfortunate ability to get semis, there is not a market for home mades at this time.
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Old January 3, 2014, 10:32 AM   #14
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I dont know how many here remember the SMG "parts kit" boom of the 90's, but it was a brisk business, and there arent that many taxed guns in the registry requiring that many spare parts. They sold a ton of kits, and for years.

You also used to see all sorts of "tubes" at gun shows and in SGN at the time as well. Some tubes even came marked with a print, so all that was needed, was something as simple as a dremel and some hand tools, to get them ready for assembly.

Hmmm. What then, do you suppose happened to all those kits?
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Old January 3, 2014, 01:29 PM   #15
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Hmmm. What then, do you suppose happened to all those kits?
I'm sure some of them were illegally completed, and entered the black market weapons trade.

I think the majority of them are sitting on shelves or in footlockers, having been bought by guys who thought they might someday be useful, just in case. And that day hasn't arrived, yet.

Face it, the simplest repeating firearm to make is a SMG. And if the law says you cannot have a gun, then essentially, you won't be in any worse trouble for having a homemade SMG than for having a single shot shotgun.

I think a lot of those smg parts kits were bought with the idea that if/when the day came that guns were banned, they would have something they could fairly easily assemble into a working gun.

I do know of one STEN smg kit that was illegally completed, and wound up in the possession of some meth trafficers. So, some of them certainly did go that route. But, considering the numbers of those kits sold, and the very small numbers of them that have turned up as illegal weapons (trust me, if there were large numbers of "homemade machineguns" being seized we'd hear about it, often), so I think the majority of the kits are gathering dust in back rooms, being kept A) just in case, and B) the owners are worried that trying to sell them would get them in trouble (possibly).

Besides the novelty factor, I think most of the SMG kits were bought, and are being kept as a hedge against TEOTWAWKI, be it the zombie apocalypse or some other fantasy. I think they figure that if it does happen, they build it, and are all set to face the hordes (dreamers!) and as long as they don't build it, its not a gun, and not an issue.

I might be wrong, maybe most of those kits owners don't think that, but I have met a couple, over the years, who did. Or at least said they did.
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Old January 3, 2014, 09:50 PM   #16
Bartholomew Roberts
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Hmmm. What then, do you suppose happened to all those kits?
I know a guy who got his SOT and started cranking out those post-86 kits. He'd trade a dozen of them to local police departments for one of their transferable MGs. A lot of weird; but rational market distortions in such a heavily regulated area - especially when so much of the regulation is nonsensical. Handguns? Those are fine. 25" 6lb rifle? That's so concealable you have to undergo special scrutiny.
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Old January 5, 2014, 01:01 PM   #17
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I know a guy who got his SOT and started cranking out those post-86 kits. He'd trade a dozen of them to local police departments for one of their transferable MGs.
Hmm, never thought of that, but yeah, if you have a market, why not? The police can still buy "new" SMGs. I would think it would be somewhat difficult to find a dept that would be interested in something like STEN guns, but if you did, why not?
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Old January 5, 2014, 08:57 PM   #18
Bartholomew Roberts
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I would think it would be somewhat difficult to find a dept that would be interested in something like STEN guns
You hit upon one of the key flaws in his plan. Although surprisingly, he did have takers. However, he bought a LOT of those kits based on the belief his idea was a winner. So even though he may have guessed wrong, he offers an anecdote that not all of those kits ended up being diverted to the illegal market.
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Old January 23, 2014, 11:56 AM   #19
Glenn E. Meyer
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Here's an interesting take from Brazil. More that 48% of guns seized are homemade.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...e-guns-brazil/
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