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Old December 31, 2013, 01:34 PM   #51
cerberus65
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If I was going to buy a .40 I would get a STI Spartan. In fact, every time I see a pic of one I start to drool. I really, really want one and I don't even like .40 S&W. I've shot .40 and 9mm side by side and .40 and .45 side by side. .45 was and is my favorite. 9mm came in a distant second. So why will I some day buy a STI Spartan in .40? Because .40 was the only thing on shelves for awhile during the last panic.
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Old December 31, 2013, 01:44 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ragwd
Another vote for the sig 229 , but make mine the enhanced elite with the srt (short reach trigger)
SRT stands for "short reset trigger". The reach to the trigger is the same, they just made the trigger reset shorter for faster and easier follow-up shots.
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Old December 31, 2013, 01:48 PM   #53
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Some nice .40s are the Springer XD 4", Sig P226 ST, HK USP .40 and my personal favorite, a Glock 20 with .40 conversion barrel (never cared much for the small frame Glock .40s).
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Old December 31, 2013, 02:15 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBid
S&W 4006. Very nice, if you like slide mounted safeties. I don't. Shoots great, built like a tank. A friend of mine has had one for 19 years, with 0 failures in over 20,000 rounds.
FWIW the Model 4006 is a steel-frame, full-size, DA/SA pistol with a slide-mounted decocker/safety. S&W also offered the same basic pistol with an alloy frame (4003); DAO versions in both steel (4046) and alloy-frame (4043) flavors; a steel-frame version with a frame-mounted decocker (4026); and a compact (4013).

The upsides of these pistols are generally low resale value, particularly for LE trade-ins, and REALLY cheap used LE mags. The main downside of the full-size metal-frame Smiths is their relatively large size in relation to their capacity (11+1); the reason for their limited capacity is that they're fundamentally a 9mm design with the .40S&W round squeezed into them, rather than the reverse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragwd
Another vote for the sig 229 , but make mine the enhanced elite with the srt (short reach trigger)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
SRT stands for "short reset trigger". The reach to the trigger is the same, they just made the trigger reset shorter for faster and easier follow-up shots.
Theohazard is correct. Ragwd, SIG also offers a "short" or "thin" trigger that is physically thinner, thus reducing the trigger reach and making the pistol friendlier to shooters with small hands; however, this is NOT the same thing as the SRT, and the two should NOT be confused. FWIW a SIG can have a short trigger, or a short reset trigger, or both simultaneously; they're fully compatible with one another.
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Old December 31, 2013, 02:23 PM   #55
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Quote:
Nanuk,

The original 40 was not a compromise anymore than any handgun. The US Border Patrol tested it extensively and was looking for a round to replace the 357 Magnum in a semi auto. The BP wanted a round that would serve as well as the 357 mag. The 9mm and 45 was in service with the BP at the time and the BP was not happy with shooting results from those. The original BP load of a 155 grain JHP @ 1250 fps worked great, it was hard on pistols of the time designed for the 9mm. They later lowered the velocity to 1200 fps and it still worked great. Now they issue a 180 grain HST so the PC hires can qualify with the guns.
To say the .40 S&W is not a compromise completely dismisses how it came about. After the FBI's massive testing looking for a better pistol ammunition they settled on the 10mm which seemed to fit the bill for penetration into cars and "stopping power." The stories at the time were that the 10mm was too much cartridge .for the "smaller agents" and they started to download the 10mm cartridge. Research was put into this and S&W shortened the case for the lesser charge and voila the .40 caliber was born.

I realize this is a very simplistic version of the story but the truth is the .40 was born out of a compromise. This doesn't mean that it isn't an effective round and the fact that so many law enforcement and governmental agencies have adopted it speak well for it.
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Old December 31, 2013, 02:59 PM   #56
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The story of "FBI agents being unable to manage 10mm recoil" is a myth.

FBI agents did not have difficulty managing full-power 10mm loads because, except for a handful of FBI-FTU personnel, agents never fired them. Full-power 10mm ammo was never issued by the FBI. FBI agents' first experience with 10mm occurred when the S&W 1076 pistol was issued along with 10mm "FBI Lite" ammunition. Each agent received transition training when they were issued the new pistol and the new ammunition.

FBI-FTU recognized the 10mm 180gr bullet has the same sectional density as .45 ACP 230gr.

On a whim, FBI-FTU SAIC John Hall personally handloaded 10mm 180gr cartridges with a velocity about 100 fps greater than .45 ACP 230gr - just to see how it would perform compared to 9mm and .45 ACP. This 10mm "reduced velocity" load was fired from John Hall's personally owned Colt Delta Elite and it outperformed all existing 9mm and .45 ACP JHP loads - hence the birth of the FBI's "10mm Lite" cartridge (and the genesis of the .40 S&W cartridge).

In choosing the 10mm cartridge over 9mm and .45 ACP the FBI was hedging it's bet - just in case the reduced velocity 10mm didn't perform on the street as anticipated. If it failed on the street then it gave the FBI more flexibility with load development (bullet weight, velocity) to increase performance.
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Old December 31, 2013, 03:11 PM   #57
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Guns I like in 40 S&W for range/HD:

XD - Great feel in hand. Rail system and the XD trigger which is the best of the striker triggers.

XDM - Same as above with a bit narrower feel and holds more rounds.

Glock 22 - Not sure about kabooms. . .but Glock makes a good gun. To avoid Glock'd brass, if you reload, there are aftermarket barrels for these which drop in that will shoot lead and stop pregnant brass. I though newer Gen 3 and Gen 4 had smaller/longer chamber reducing the pregnant look and stopping the possiblility of kabooms. . . .
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Old December 31, 2013, 03:48 PM   #58
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In actual real-life shootings there is no real measurable difference between 9mm, .40, and .45; they're all equally bad at stopping a threat.
I don't like what small, fast bullets do when they hit bones and other hard objects, compared to what heavier bullets do. That's shooting big game.

I have been reading No Easy Day by one of the Seals who shot Bin Laden. He was issued the standard Sig 226 in 9mm but said he usually carried a .45.

I would think those guys would know better than anyone what works best on humans, and he wasn't carrying a .45 because ammo was easier to get.

And some people carry to defend against attackers a whole lot harder to kill than any human.
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Old December 31, 2013, 03:52 PM   #59
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Especially with low-velocity target loads, the S&W M&P 40 Pro Series 5" is an extreme pleasure to shoot. I've used it many times in ESP division IDPA and also in USPSA shooting and it has been a blast. After some serious goofing around with loads, is possible to get very consistent and accurate loads in 40SW and with that gun.



For a completely different option, I can certainly recommend the Kahr K40 for compact CCW, as it is an all-steel gun that handles full-power 40SW loads relatively well. Extremely well, actually. Also another gun that performs very nicely accuracy-wise. Double-action only., which took be quite a while to get good with, and will likely take me a bit longer to really master. But, this little gun will drill 'em in there with no trouble.



Hopefully, someone will provide some Miami shootout, gelatin test, windshield and denim penetration, average engagement distance and average rounds fired per engagement statistics to make your choice in a 40SW pistol even easier.
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Old December 31, 2013, 04:20 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eight_is_enough
I would think those guys would know better than anyone what works best on humans, and he wasn't carrying a .45 because ammo was easier to get.
Actually, when it comes to things like that, usually those guys are some of the worst people to ask. They have their personal experiences and the anecdotal evidence of others, and they have very strong views on the subject. But they're not actually testing it in a large enough sample in controlled tests: Even a combat-hardened SEAL hasn't shot enough people with both a .45 and a 9mm have a true grasp of the differences. And even if he had, none of those shootings would have been under anything even remotely resembling a controlled test, so the data would be flawed at best.

When it comes to something as subtle as the difference in effectiveness between 9mm and a .45, using anecdotal evidence from members of the military is one of the worst ways to measure it. I spent four years in the Marine Corps infantry, and in my current job I meet a lot of military guys, many with tons of combat experience. We all learned how to use our weapons and we got a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't through experience, but when it comes to something as detailed and scientific as 9mm vs .45, members of the military are the completely wrong people to ask about it. I've learned far more about firearms since I got out then I ever did when I was in.
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Old December 31, 2013, 04:25 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Eight_is_enough
And some people carry to defend against attackers a whole lot harder to kill than any human.
That's a good point. Sure, against animals tougher than humans the .45 might stand out a little more, but in that case I'd rather have at least a .357 mag or a 10mm.
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Old December 31, 2013, 04:37 PM   #62
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Theo, not to be disrespectful, but don't these same SEAL's know quite a few others that are more than wiling to share their stories? I do agree 100% about the results being uncontrolled.
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Old December 31, 2013, 05:01 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Guv
don't these same SEAL's know quite a few others that are more than wiling to share their stories?
Yes they do, and that's exactly the problem. Most of the common knowledge passed along in the military is from people's gathered stories that have been told and re-told for years. Most of it is very good information, but some isn't. It's amazing how many firearm myths are pervasive in the military. But it rarely is a problem; combat troops aren't scientists, they rarely need to know "why", they just need to know how to do their jobs.

If you ask a SEAL which sniper round a has better range, 7.62x51mm or .300 Win Mag, he's going to give you a good answer because the differences are plain to see and easy to measure. But 9mm and .45 are so close in performance and the differences in effectiveness on the human body are difficult enough to measure that no SEAL is going to give an answer to that question that's even a fraction as good as a good scientific study can.
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Old December 31, 2013, 05:33 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Bongo Boy
Hopefully, someone will provide some Miami shootout, gelatin test, windshield and denim penetration, average engagement distance and average rounds fired per engagement statistics to make your choice in a 40SW pistol even easier.
First, the Miami shootout was a problem in police tactics combined with the fact they were armed with pistols against two determined combat-vet criminals, one of whom had a rifle.

Second, the more someone studies the statistics of 9mm vs .40, the more they should come to the conclusion that the ballistic differences are small enough that those differences shouldn't be a deciding factor in their choice. The deciding factors should be which cartridge they shoot best and can afford to practice with the most. Because as Platt and Matix showed, a handgun is a pea-shooter compared to a rifle, so what really matters is which handgun you shoot best.
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Old December 31, 2013, 06:11 PM   #65
Frank Ettin
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Let's not turn this into another "my cartridge is better than your cartridge" thread. The OP is looking for recommendations for a pistol chambered in .40 S&W.

Let's stay focused on that.
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Old December 31, 2013, 06:26 PM   #66
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I was at my local Cabela's recently, and I sometimes look at their used guns with no intention of buying, because their prices are outrageous.

This time around, they had a ton of used .40s in the case. Probably 50 or more .40 handguns. They had $100 off any used .40, and they had several like new P226 DAO in .40 for $599, which would make them $499. They also had a like new P239 in .40 for $599, which would have been $499 as well.

They all had night sights as well. The finish looked like new on them. If I was on the market for a couple of pistols in .40, I would have bought both. Great deals on some nice Sigs IMO.

I have been noticing in my area that there are a ton of used .40s in gunshops recently. During the ammo buying panic as well, the shelves would be full of .40, but no 9mm or .45 to be found.

It seems to be that people may be moving away from the .40 S&W. Has anybody else seen this where you live? I'm just curious.
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Old December 31, 2013, 06:27 PM   #67
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I much prefer a metal framed .40 like a Sig or a gen3 S&W 4006. Mine shoot full on 155/165gr sweetly. I'm still working on the recoil control for 180gr loads.
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Old December 31, 2013, 07:45 PM   #68
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Why the 40??? Its more powerful than a 9mm and holds more than a 45acp. I have killed deer very efficiently with my 10mm loaded to hot 40 spec. I wouldn't hunt deer with any 9mm or 45acp. If money is no object, then the Sig Sauer P229 is a purpose built 40s&w. They are extremely accurate. Out of my 27 handgun collection of multiple calibers, my P229 Elite Dark in 40s&w is my number one choice as a bed side gun. I have had it to Gunsite and it has never malfunctioned with any ammo.


This is full power Critical Defence in 40 with 500 ftlbs of energy rapid fire.
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Old December 31, 2013, 07:48 PM   #69
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I do not contest that a Navy Seal can shoot any caliber better than me. I have to go with the gun that I shoot best. The only way to really know that is to rent / borrow/ beg like a dog to shoot somebody else's. That is what I do. woof.
Actually I rented 4 models in 40 S&W. Put 50 rounds through each of them. I can learn to live with or without any feature any brand of gun has, but if the sights or grip angle are wrong for me, I can spend a lot of money trying to fix a gun that really isn't broken. It is just not the one for me.
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Old December 31, 2013, 07:50 PM   #70
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Quote:
First, the Miami shootout was a problem in police tactics combined with the fact they were armed with pistols against two determined combat-vet criminals, one of whom had a rifle.

Second, the more someone studies the statistics of 9mm vs .40, the more they should come to the conclusion that the ballistic differences are small enough that those differences shouldn't be a deciding factor in their choice. The deciding factors should be which cartridge they shoot best and can afford to practice with the most. Because as Platt and Matix showed, a handgun is a pea-shooter compared to a rifle, so what really matters is which handgun you shoot best.
The whole idea of my comment was humor--anticipating that the tiresome topics I mentioned would inevitably come up as the standard precursor to a full-blown caliber discussion.
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Old December 31, 2013, 08:06 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo Boy
The whole idea of my comment was humor--anticipating that the tiresome topics I mentioned would inevitably come up as the standard precursor to a full-blown caliber discussion.
Ahh, OK. Sarcasm is sometimes difficult to detect online.
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Old December 31, 2013, 08:13 PM   #72
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Charlesc,

The answer is easy: Sig P-229.

Second choice is a Sig P-229.

Third choice is a Sig P-229.

That was so easy that a cave man could have answered it.
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Old December 31, 2013, 08:27 PM   #73
bt380
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The absolute best 40 cal to use is the one that you personally can shoot the best consistently in home defense scenarios. Once caveat to include: must be reliable 100% of the time.
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Read Greg Ellifritz article equipment vs caliber, you may look at another caliber.
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Old December 31, 2013, 08:35 PM   #74
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bt380,

Before the .40 S&W was born, I thought that there was no equal to the .45 ACP for self-defense. The 40 S&W cartridge is powerful, not as powerful as a .45 ACP, but powerful nonetheless.

The quandary comes in to play when one weighs 13 or more .40 S&W rounds compared to 9 .45 ACP rounds. There is a tactical advantage to not having to reload, especially if there is more than one bad guy.

I would completely understand going one way or the other.
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Old December 31, 2013, 08:45 PM   #75
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The only .40 pistol I have or experience with is the (desert baby eagle) IWI jericho941. Has Poloygonal rifling , very accurate and fun to shoot.
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