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Old December 30, 2013, 06:24 AM   #1
johnelmore
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Terrorist assault on a hospital / active shooters

I am surprised this has not been brought up here, but in Yemen not too long ago there was an assault on a hospital and it was caught in great detail on closed circuit video. This video makes an excellent discussion of tactics and training as it presents a realistic active shooter situation.

Before viewing the video, please note the video is violent and bloody. It contains images of people getting wounded and killed. So please consider if watching this video is for you:

http://youtu.be/-Bdb9UVNcdE

My take away from the video is the innocent bystanders had frozen in place or wondered around the place after the incident getting shot by the assaulters. The bystanders should have immediately reacted to either escape or get to the most defensive position. In this case, the bystanders stood by the doorway looking out the window onto the street when they should have retreated deeper into the hospital either trying to find an exit on the opposite side or moving up to the highest point in the hospital which would be the most defensive position. Most certainly they should not stand by the windows or in a room which is adjacent to the outside. From the start of the video, it seemed like the bystanders had perceived a threat, but took little action except to duck into the building and stay by the windows.

The average running speed is about 10 miles per hour give or take depending upon the individual which amounts to about 14.5 feet per second. Each second wasted means you could be that much further from the threat.
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Old December 30, 2013, 08:18 AM   #2
MarkDozier
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Really great for reminding me why I carry and practice awareness all the time.
now to the range to do some defensive/offensive practice.
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Old December 30, 2013, 11:03 AM   #3
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The big surprise is that this is a a surprise to people still.

Its a sad but true fact of life that "troubled" individuals will continue to attack helpless people.

I think Dave grossman's take on this in society is spot on

For those that have not read his EXCELLENT books on violence in todays society, do yourself a favor and read them

In short his model (which he credits to someone else) is about the interactions of sheep,wolves and sheepdogs

The vast majority of people in society are Sheep..... Kind gentle loving
A small percentage are Wolves.... Live to feed on the sheep
A few are sheepdogs... "Always sniffing around" , prepared to protect the sheep. Even at the cost of their own lives.

If you CCW (or carry off-duty). You need to read this stuff. It truly helped me better understand my thoughts and feelings on SD issues. My first wife always gave me grief about my CCW'ing EVERYWHERE. I felt i had to be able to protect not just myself and loved ones but the helpless around me

Classic sheepdog mentality...

Not better then... Not worse then... Just different then

I could go on and on, but ive gotta get to the gym to TRAIN for the wolf!!!

Last edited by Sharkbite; December 30, 2013 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old December 30, 2013, 11:55 AM   #4
ClydeFrog
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Grossman; personal kills....

I read LTC Grossman's On Combat(2009 edition) last summer(2013).
He makes several good points but I don't agree with all his views/findings.

I do agree with his assessments of the 3 basic types of kills; mechanical distance & personal.
"personal" kills are what most license holders & armed citizens will deal with.
Developing & training the proper mindset and being prepared for CQB type events is what armed citizens/CCW holders should do most.

Some armed citizens take issue with the "sheepdog" label which is valid. Not every gun owner or license holder can or will be able to handle lethal force events.
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Old December 30, 2013, 11:59 AM   #5
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I agree with the statement the not all gun owners are able to deal with violent encounters. A target shooter or even a hunter are not required to deal with inter-personal conflict... But isnt that the very essence behind the reason to CCW?

If not to be prepared to face a human threat... What is it for?
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Old December 30, 2013, 01:30 PM   #6
kraigwy
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One thing being over looked here is what not to do in a active shooter situation.

Fleeing is the best option, hunkering down is second best.

However if you hunker down you need to be prepared in case the bandit discovers you.

Along the same lines you need to know how not to act if first responders find you.

That requires shoot-don't shoot training. But not just shoot-don't shoot but brandish-don't brandish.

In other words you need to be ready at an instant to display either your SD weapon or when to display empty hands.

We know that in active shooter situations, first responders are going to respond, and there may be other people out there carrying for self defense.

In active shooter incidents you're going to face the three threats mentioned and need to be able to respond to each accordingly.
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Old December 31, 2013, 12:01 PM   #7
Ben Towe
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The use of bombs/grenades may have had at least something to with reactions (interesting aside: that one grenade that was tossed into the group had a really long fuse, 6-7 seconds. Long enough to football kick it or throw it back at the terrorist if one had had the presence of mind to do so). Shelling does strange things to people. Men who will charge entrenched positions on a regular basis can break under shelling. These were your average Joe and Jane doctors, nurses and patients. They were dazed, confused, terrified, and apparently unarmed.

We don't get the full picture of the assault from the CCTV cameras. How did they assault the building? Did they have teams stationed around the perimeter to prevent escape? How big were the entry teams and how did they move throughout the building? How large is the building and how is it laid out? Where are the exits and how many are there? Are the exits easily accessible?

You must bear in mind this isn't a lone gunman on a psychotic break. These people are jihadists who have probably had training, maybe even some special forces training. It's highly likely this isn't the first time they have fired a shot in anger. The victims may have reacted poorly, or there may have been no other way to react. The whole place may have been orchestrated into a kill box and nothing short of being able to shoot your way out would have saved your life. Without details, we cannot know.

I did notice that at least some of the victims appeared to be shot from ambush (in the hallway). Even extensively trained and well armed people are susceptible to that tactic. It's very difficult to defend against that in a hall or room with multiple entrances.
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Last edited by Ben Towe; December 31, 2013 at 12:20 PM.
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Old January 7, 2014, 11:01 PM   #8
peacefulgary
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I don't know of any civilian hospital in the United States that allows its staff to carry firearms.

I work in a large hospital and firearms are completely prohibited.
Not only are firearms forbidden inside the hospital, you can't even have them in your vehicle on hospital grounds.


Yep, "gun free" zones only make it easier for the criminals.
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Old January 8, 2014, 12:15 AM   #9
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Fortunately, in Nevada, signs carry no weight of law. Aside from our university medical enter, which could be construed as a school, you can legally carry in all hospitals. Your employment may be at risk, but you won't go to jail.
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Old January 8, 2014, 12:48 AM   #10
CCCLVII
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I have often wondered about where I fit in on the Sheep dog, Sheep and wolf thing.

I have a CCW but if I was in a place where there was a shooting my first response would be to get out of there. I carry encase there is no way to get out.
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Old January 8, 2014, 11:25 AM   #11
Nanuk
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Quote:
I have often wondered about where I fit in on the Sheep dog, Sheep and wolf thing.
While it has some application, I have always found it to be an overly simplistic analogy.
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Old January 9, 2014, 12:22 AM   #12
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I agree with some other people here. I will try to get away first. I think a true sheep dog would feel obligated to protect the sheep buy trying to stop the threat. If that is the case I am not a sheep dog. Sheep tend to go blindly in to a situation and are not prepared to fight, I hope I am not a sheep. I and not the bad guy/assailant here so I am not the wolf either.

Im just me.
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Last edited by Deja vu; January 9, 2014 at 12:30 AM.
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Old January 9, 2014, 09:16 AM   #13
Don P
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Well, to start we do not live in Yemem.
I will not speculate on other states. Here in FLA our CCW laws DO NOT allow carry in hospitals/medical facilities because of the mental health departments/treatments that take place there.
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Old January 9, 2014, 09:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
I think a true sheep dog would feel obligated to protect the sheep buy trying to stop the threat.
This is where the Grossman analogy is really poor. You have two primary types of sheepdogs. Both types are engaged in keeping the sheep captive at the command of a master (who isn't a dog at all). You have herding dogs and guarding dogs. The dogs perform out of training and genetics, not obligation. They don't really have personal choice. Plus, sheepdogs do what they do all the time. They don't have jobs elsewhere. They don't worry if they will ever seen their family again. It is a way of life and how they live. Grossman also referred to sheepdogs in the sense of the military and police who have masters, not so much the generally untrained/lightly trained ronin CCW individuals. So the situation is completely different than in human society as many CCW folks thinks it applies.

Quote:
The average running speed is about 10 miles per hour give or take depending upon the individual which amounts to about 14.5 feet per second. Each second wasted means you could be that much further from the threat.
As a pacifist once told me, "The best defense is to not be there." To a certain extent from a personal safety perspective, he is completely right.
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Old January 9, 2014, 10:08 AM   #15
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Quote:
I think a true sheep dog would feel obligated to protect the sheep buy trying to stop the threat.
This is where the Grossman analogy is really poor. You have two primary types of sheepdogs. Both types are engaged in keeping the sheep captive at the command of a master (who isn't a dog at all). You have herding dogs and guarding dogs. The dogs perform out of training and genetics, not obligation. They don't really have personal choice. Plus, sheepdogs do what they do all the time. They don't have jobs elsewhere. They don't worry if they will ever seen their family again. It is a way of life and how they live....
Also, people tend to ignore the true lesson of the parable: The sheepdog appears much like the wolf and therefore will tend to be treated with suspicion by the sheep. Grossman was trying to help understand the sorts of emotional barriers one finds between individuals in military and police service and persons who are not.
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Old January 10, 2014, 02:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
The average running speed is about 10 miles per hour give or take depending upon the individual which amounts to about 14.5 feet per second. Each second wasted means you could be that much further from the threat.
With 7 known active shooters, there is probably just as strong a likelihood that you are running pell mell toward a threat as away from it.
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Old January 11, 2014, 06:31 PM   #17
johnelmore
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If you are unsure which way to exit then try moving higher within the structure to the roof if possible. While moving higher, lock doors and throw down obstacles. Throw down anything which they could trip over or block forward movement.

There is an exception and that is the fire threat. Fire is the most deadly threat. Fire spreads in minutes and eats up all the Oxygen. If there was a fire I would rather run full force outside then try to deal with the fire.

No we do not live in Yemen but there are still similar situations here.
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Old January 20, 2014, 04:00 PM   #18
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One of my Sons Security Officers, on a gatehouse 12 hour duty, took instantly sick, some form of vertigo.

She went by ambulance to the main Hospital, down town Orlando.

I was on Mobile Patrol at that self same Community.

End of shift, went to the Hospital, as I arrived, and asked were our young Lady would be, a Dr. standing by the Police Sgt. on Duty at this main entrance, said come with me, and directed me to the room she was in, going through all the swipe entry doors.

When I left, I saw the no Gun sign! Ooops! Have not tried that since.

All the Hospitals now have Metal Detectors.

I have met Col. Dave Grossman, on a few occasions, good speaker, lays a lot of blame on Violent videos, assessable to teens.

But he is not a combat veteran, most likely never had a real fight as an adult.

Real nice Guy none the less.
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Old January 21, 2014, 10:14 PM   #19
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The whole sheepdog thing is way over intellectualized, its just not that deep. I think it boils down to 3 personalities as it relates to citizen / non-responders coming to the aide of others.

1. the foolhardy - will meet the threat regardless
2. the analytical - will meet the threat under certain conditions
3. the pacifist - will not fight

to be fair, I am sure there could be some sub categories but generally speaking I don't think its much deeper than that.
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Old January 21, 2014, 10:26 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCLVII View Post
I have often wondered about where I fit in on the Sheep dog, Sheep and wolf thing.

I have a CCW but if I was in a place where there was a shooting my first response would be to get out of there. I carry encase there is no way to get out.
I'm a sheepdog....but I'm only responsible for certain sheep (i.e. my loved ones). I won't be the hero for anyone else....my family depends on me too much for that.
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Old January 21, 2014, 10:42 PM   #21
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I had no idea guns were not allowed in hospitals. I have carried in hospitals on several occasions in the past few years. Although, the most they can do if discovered is ask you to leave the premises.

As far as what I would do in the situation, it's tough to tell until you are actually in that situation. Call me a coward, by my first instinct would be to high tail it out of there. If that wasn't an option, I would hold up in a room, close the door, draw my pistol, keep close to the side of the door so I could see who was coming in before they saw me, and be able to surprise them if it indeed was the terrorist.
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Old January 25, 2014, 06:38 AM   #22
Brit
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Dr Phillips Hospital, metal detector on Emergency entrance, supervised by un-armed uniformed Security.

Don't know how they would respond to an armed, uncooperative drunk?
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Old January 25, 2014, 08:55 AM   #23
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Quote:
I'm a sheepdog....but I'm only responsible for certain sheep (i.e. my loved ones). I won't be the hero for anyone else....my family depends on me too much for that.
See, no, not really a sheepdog, but more like a ram, if you follow the analogy.
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