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Old December 28, 2013, 01:35 PM   #1
SaxonPig
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Anyone ever seen on of these?

I had not until this morning at a local gun show. I have a standard 4.5" model with fixed sights and I had to have this one. From my reading these were made with steel frames in the beginning and then alloy frames. I had never seen one with a steel frame until I saw this one. I still can't find any info on an 8" version.

Anyone seen this before? I'm not 100% sure it wasn't created by a smith.





Here's the standard model.


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Old December 28, 2013, 02:24 PM   #2
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You have what appears to be an Artillery model of the Luger. Yes, they were produced by the Germans and do exist (I don't know if a smith retro fitted a longer barrel on yours)

There were wooden stocks that could be attached to the backstrap of the handle and were sometimes accompanied by a snail drum that held 32 rounds or so (I'm not an expert on Lugers) This, with the stock added, essentially made it a pistol carbine during WW1... Kinda neat though, Ive wanted that Artillery version for a while. Someone else on here probably has a link or more in depth information. Cool find!
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Old December 28, 2013, 02:25 PM   #3
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I thank it was used by the armor division. You can find info on the net about it. what was the price on it?
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Old December 28, 2013, 02:38 PM   #4
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.

Hardly..............

FWIW, those are not military/German P-08 Parabellum pistols - they are .22LR variants made in the 1970's (?), until 1985.

They have cast frames & toggles made of stamped sheet metal, as befits a .22 clone - and I am surprised your pistole has a steel frame. (have you done a magnet test ?)

"Luger" is only an Americanism for the original P-08 pistols, none of which were originally stamped "Luger".

The Luger brand name has long been wholly-owned by Stoeger Arms, who had their trademarked name stamped on various P-08 & other guns they imported.

I've only seen 4-1/2" & 5-1/2" variants of the Stoeger .22 Luger listed, so although the standard versions are booked in the lower $200 range, I would WAG you have a rare uncatalogged long bbl variant - Good show !


.

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Old December 28, 2013, 03:11 PM   #5
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I didn't realize anyone might confuse these with the German military P08s. These are the Stoeger Lugers made 1970s-1980s in 22 Long Rifle. My very first pistol was one of these but it jammed constantly and the gun shop exchanged it for another one. Then I sold it.

About 2 years ago I saw one at a local show for $225 and in a tidal wave of nostalgia I bought it (got 10 bucks off the price). This one works perfectly. I know they made the standard version with a 4.5" barrel and a target model with a longer barrel (6"?) and adjustable sights, but I had never seen this "Artillery Model" until today. From 20 feet away I thought it was a Wehrmacht P08 but up close I realized it was a Stoeger.

I have to assume they didn't make too many of these since I've never seen or heard of it. Then again, it might be a custom job built for a customer with more cash than good sense.
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Old December 28, 2013, 04:32 PM   #6
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Wow! That went over my head and into left field! I just glanced at your picture (long barreled one) and it had me fooled 100% off of sight...I knew the shorter one was a repro, but not your new one. I too was unaware of Stoeger making an 8" version. As for SaxonPig's original question, I got nothin' and I must gracefully bow out of this conversation.
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Old December 28, 2013, 04:42 PM   #7
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I very vaguely recall seeing a couple of those long barrel Stoeger Lugers, but it was many moons ago, and they must be very rare.

It really is not correct to call them "repros" as they bear only a superficial resemblance to the Parabellum pistol and don't operate the same way. The other Luger copies, by ERMA, looked more like the original, but also didn't work like it.

Jim
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Old December 28, 2013, 05:07 PM   #8
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Well, to get REALLY technical since Stoeger owns the name Luger that's what this is correctly called. The German military pistols were called P08 for Parabellum of 1908 and were never called Lugers by the Germans. No idea what to call the Ermas except not Luger as Stoger owns that one.
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Old December 29, 2013, 12:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
I'm not 100% sure it wasn't created by a smith.
Speaking of which, the gun appears to retain the standard Stoeger rear-toggle-mounted fixed sight; is the barrel-mounted "tangent sight" even functional? I don't see any obvious means of adjustment.
Quote:
No idea what to call the Ermas...
According to the Blue Book and what I've been able to ascertain online, the pre-68 .22LR models were the LA 22, EP 22, and ET 22. The former two models are supposedly near-identical. The latter has an 11-3/4" barrel and is described as "Artillery Style", but I'd characterize it as carbine-style, as it has a wood fore-end that's similar to the commercial Parabellum carbine. (Before someone asks, I don't believe that the OP's picture is a "de-stocked" ET 22, as the Ermas look quite different from the Stoegers in several aspects.)

Erma apparently added a magazine disconnect to the LA/EP 22 to comply with the 68 GCA and rechristened it as the KGP-69.

The .32ACP/.380ACP models were initially sold as the KGP-68; as with the .22's, Erma added a mag disconnect in 1968 and changed the name to KGP-68A. This pistol later became the Beeman MP-08 when Beeman became Erma's US distributor.

Interestingly, my 1970 issue of the Gun Digest shows a 9mm model called the KGP-70, but this pistol is not referenced in the Blue Book, and I can't find any references to it on US gun forums; I surmise that it was never actually imported.
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Old December 29, 2013, 12:25 PM   #10
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The barrel mounted rear sight is fully adjustable for windage and elevation. One screw on top and other on right so neither are visible in the photo. Frond sight has a call bead and the set above the fixed rear sight so it doesn't interfere at all.

I noticed some differences between my 4.5" standard model and this one. On the standard version the safety is marked S and F and can be swapped for left handed use with the F and S also appearing on the right side. The 8" gun has on green and red dots on the safety with no provision to switch the lever to the other side. Also, the frame contour is a little different between the guns.

I find this pistol very interesting and I am anxious to see if it shoots. I really wish I could find some info on this model but so far on three forums nobody can definitely recall seeing one.
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Old December 29, 2013, 12:26 PM   #11
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Old December 29, 2013, 12:38 PM   #12
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If you check the frame with a magnet be sure to remove the magazine first.
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Old December 29, 2013, 02:46 PM   #13
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Mag is aluminum. Frame is definitely steel.
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Old December 29, 2013, 03:02 PM   #14
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there is a local luger nut that sets up at every gunshow here. he doesn't sell but he has probably 30 of them on display and he has 1 or 2 of those really long ones. they are real, I just don't know the story behind them.
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Old December 29, 2013, 04:02 PM   #15
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Old December 30, 2013, 01:49 PM   #16
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IIRC, ,at that time the Stoeger 22 Lugers were made by Erma, there was a long barrel " Navy " version that , if boxed and new they bring quite a premium. The one shown looks the same as far as sights but the Erma version have a fore arm, Saxon Pig's looks as if it had a forearm at one time.
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Old December 30, 2013, 02:51 PM   #17
carguychris
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^^^ RJay, as I wrote in my prior post, I'm fairly certain that SaxonPig's pistol is not an Erma ET 22 "Artillery Model" without the fore-end. The Stoegers have a distinctive, chunky look compared to the Ermas I've seen.

Take a look at the pictures in the following Gunboards thread, and pay particular attention to the rear sight and the frame contours around the trigger guard. In addition, the pictures don't show the spurious rear toggle sight, although I'm not absolutely certain it's not there, as the pictures are taken from a slight upwards angle.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-KGP-69-Pistol

Also, I'll confess that I don't know who made the pre-68 Stoegers, but the later Stoegers were made in the USA (see PetahW's ad).
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Last edited by carguychris; December 30, 2013 at 02:52 PM. Reason: minor reword...
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Old December 30, 2013, 04:52 PM   #18
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Both of mine are stamped as made in Hackensack, NJ.
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Old December 30, 2013, 07:29 PM   #19
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My bad, Stoeger imported the earlier .22 Luger look a like's from Germany, since 1973 they have been produced by replica Arms in New Jersey. Replica Arms is a subsidiary of Navy Arms. (Not counting that junk from Texas ).The Navy Arms " Navy Model " is the one I was referring to, just got company wrong. It looks ( at least to me ) like a Navy Arms, long barrel " Navy " model with out the fore arm, They didn't call it the artillery model. It very nicely boxed and was well finished, at least the one I examined.
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Old December 30, 2013, 10:36 PM   #20
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I think the carbine model with fore end had a 12" or longer barrel. Likely 16" to be legal with the shoulder stock. This is the 8" "Artillery Model" and these did not have wooden fore end to my knowledge.
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Old December 31, 2013, 12:00 AM   #21
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I wasn't aware that the 22 look a likes were slotted or shoulder stocks were made for them. They were just .22's replicas, not copy's of the Mauser artillery lugers on of the luger carbine. In fact there is really no way to even compare the Stoeger.22's to the actual thing, they weren't any artillery or carbine versions. AFAIK, could be wrong, I think I was wring once before
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Old December 31, 2013, 09:53 AM   #22
SaxonPig
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Both of my Stoegers have slotted frames for the stock but I doubt any would actually fit. I think that was just for looks.
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Old December 31, 2013, 07:49 PM   #23
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To me that looks kinda like a ruger barrel...

I'd say it was fitted into the pistol since it has the right 'look' that's the reason for the collar so far out. Just my guess.
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