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Old December 30, 2013, 11:18 PM   #76
SR420
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Testy?, not me.

I think the OP is going with the POF, but I did give him another, last minute option to consider.

BTW, no M14 that I know of comes with a 24 inch barrel.
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Old December 30, 2013, 11:30 PM   #77
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Old December 31, 2013, 09:44 AM   #78
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I see people mentioned DPMS... I hear their higher end decked out rifles are pretty good, at least the .308 ones. They do cost a bit more than their other models, close to $2000 I believe, but with many features that the $3000 guns have.

That's just from my reading and research online. No direct experience, so take it for what it is.

The piston vs DI argument... Both work. The DI can be reliable, so long as you know how to treat it. The pistons are easier to clean, and the receiver stays cooler during long strings of fire. Pick what you want, but don't think you must have one or the other.


As far as two you mentioned being really interested in... The Sig Patrol... It only has a 16 inch barrel. While not a huge detriment, as short barrels can actually be more accurate for a given barrel profile... You do loose velocity, which can effect long range punch and that limits effective range. You want 20 inches or longer for 1000 yards.

Thing is, I would think outside of a war zone, 1000 yard shots are rare. Not many people have access to ranges that long, and hunting at that distance is irresponsible. Even in a SHTF situation, ammo is limited, do you really want to waste ammo on iffy shots? Even pros can need a couple shots to dial in the wind and other parameters when in a combat situation where time is limited. Not to mention that to take a shot at that range makes a lot of assumptions of the intent of the person you are shooting. A person calmly traveling and not knowing they are approaching your "land/compound" and isn't there to raid the place, can you tell the difference between them and someone of ill intent at that range? I doubt I could. Sure there are some who would be obviously coming to attack, but not always. Unless you want to be the type who shoots first and doesn't even bother with the question later. I'm sure that will prevent a few problems with nefarious types, but also limiting the chances of humans regrouping and forming a civilization again. Also limits your ability to survive... Trade will be a necessity, no matter how well you think you prepared.

Little tangent there... Point being, most shots I would think are going to be less that 1000 yards, probably 500-600 yards at the most.

A 16 inch barrel should work well enough, and an 18 inch barrel might be a good overall size.

Last edited by marine6680; December 31, 2013 at 09:49 AM.
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Old December 31, 2013, 10:32 AM   #79
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Quote:
marine6680

...most shots I would think are going to be less that 1000 yards, probably 500-600 yards at the most.

A 16 inch barrel should work well enough, and an 18 inch barrel might be a good overall size.
I agree.
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Old December 31, 2013, 12:38 PM   #80
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Quote:
marine6680

...most shots I would think are going to be less that 1000 yards, probably 500-600 yards at the most.

A 16 inch barrel should work well enough, and an 18 inch barrel might be a good overall size.
Quote:
I agree.
I think it depends upon where you live and what you want to do with the rifle. I live in New Mexico where 1,000 yard shots are not difficult to setup, whether at a range or on public land. The gun club I belong to has a steel range with the furthest target at about 960 yards.

There is another club with a 1,000 yard range and if I want to drive to Bureau of Land Management land - I can shoot even further.

There are regular precision tactical rifle competitions and if you want to be competitive, you need a certain type of rifle because a lot of the stages are timed where you have to change position and still shoot the required number of rounds. While some people do compete with bolt action rifles, there are some instances where they are at a severe disadvantage unless the rifle will take a 10 round magazine.

I can tell you that with my rifle, the only time a 600 yard shot becomes challenging is when they put up clay pigeons as targets at that distance. The 10-inch steels are an easy shot unless there is a more than 5 mph variable crosswind to contend with.

The point is - there are no "givens" when deciding what someone else "needs" in a rifle, unless you know exactly all of the conditions under which they are going to use the rifle.

The "500-600 yards at most" conclusion may work where you live - but it won't even get you close to the upper end of target shooting where I live.
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Old December 31, 2013, 09:15 PM   #81
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True, there are places where you can find ranges that you can shoot that far. There are also places where you have enough open country to do so as well... And competition is a different world from hunting and a combat situation... And from a SHTF scenario as well.

Even if he is able to line up shots at that range, it is impractical or irresponsible for the reasons I pointed out.

If he wants to do long range competition, then by all means, he needs to get a long barrel and rig capable of doing so. I just didn't see him giving competition as a use scenario in his posts, maybe I missed that.
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Old December 31, 2013, 10:02 PM   #82
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Even if he is able to line up shots at that range, it is impractical or irresponsible for the reasons I pointed out.
Let's look at exactly what he's said in the original post.

Quote:
This rifle will most likely become my go to firearm and primary weapon for a variety of uses. Primary use will be for home defense, range practice, plinking on friends farms, but I do want to use it for hunting on occasion, which will involve 500+ yard shots.
Home defense? No. Way to much power for close defense, and as you've pointed out - long range shots at unknown strangers are not defensible for a number of reasons.

Range practice - sure why not. I have no idea the distance he's going to shoot. Do you?

Plinking on a friend's farm - sure why not. Again - have no idea of the distances.

Hunting on occasion - sure, as long as you treat the rifle like any other .308 and keep it within the required power factor at the range the game is being hunted.

Prairie dogs at 500-800 yards? Sure - I'd try that one. Elk at 500 yards ....no, wouldn't feel confident with a one shot kill on an animal that size.

Quote:
And from a SHTF scenario as well.
I didn't see that in the OP's original post so I think you're reading that one into his post. For zombies, I think the best defense is to put a ring of treadmills around your house...

Giving the OP the benefit of the doubt that he's not going to be incredibly stupid with the rifle - can't see a problem with owning a precision AR10.

Last edited by buckhorn_cortez; December 31, 2013 at 10:37 PM.
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Old December 31, 2013, 11:40 PM   #83
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He mentioned SHTF in his second post.

He mentioned that a majority of its use would be at the range. Which is normal I would think... But he also mentioned hunting as its second use, he mentioned hogs specifically, and left it open for other game as well...

As we all know, there is no perfect Rifle that can serve all uses well. What is best for 1000 competition/range use, is not what is best for the average hunt. So it is best to keep goals grounded... When on a budget and needing only one to do the job, you need to be a little pragmatic with your choice.

While some hunters may shoot at game over 600 yards away, it's not something that I would recommend. Even those who have the skill can still make mistakes, and tracking a wounded animal with a 600 yard head start is not my idea of a good situation.

The question is, which will annoy him more... A rifle that is good on the 1000 yard line, but heavy and unwieldy for hunting... Or one that is good in the field but lacking in punch to hold consistent MOA (ish) groups at 1000 yards? Maybe a compromise between the two could be a good choice if the compromises can be lived with.

By all means, he should get what he wants, it is his money and his right... Heck, I myself want a precision AR10... Well my fiance wants one... And it's strictly a range and fun toy that we want it for, so I know what role I need it to fill, just the one. With his intended uses, a little voice of reason before dropping that amount of money could save him some headache. As it can help him ask the right questions of himself.

Last edited by marine6680; December 31, 2013 at 11:45 PM.
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Old January 1, 2014, 10:03 AM   #84
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POF uses polygonal rifling in their barrels; not good enough for the best accuracy even though they claim it's more accurate than conventional land and groove rifling. I asked about the large diameter's dimension in the bore to see how it relates to conventionally rifled barrels accuracy; they said it was .000".

They only mention 3-shot groups in under 1 MOA at 300 yards in response to my query.

They say their manufacturing process makes the bolt and chamber face square with the chamber axis but offer no explanation why accuracy degrades after 3 shots.

I'm trying to find out more info, especially at longer ranges, as to the accuracy they get.

My opinion's they don't know much about what's needed for sub MOA accuracy at 1000 yards.
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Old January 1, 2014, 10:26 AM   #85
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When HoosierDave narrowed his list down to these 3, I suggested the POF.
Quote:
1) Springfield F716 Patrol FDE 16.1" barrel .308 $1,859
2) POF .308 in 20" barrel $2,500
3) M1A National or Super Match .308 $1,900 to 2,450
However, I followed that choice up with this private message.

Quote:
The M14 is my #1, but I am officially switching my vote to the Ruger SR-762.

You may want to give it a closer look.
When shopping for an AR style .308, I think the SR-762 delivers more bang for your buck.
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Old January 1, 2014, 11:53 AM   #86
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Quote:
He mentioned that a majority of its use would be at the range. Which is normal I would think... But he also mentioned hunting as its second use, he mentioned hogs specifically, and left it open for other game as well...

As we all know, there is no perfect Rifle that can serve all uses well. What is best for 1000 competition/range use, is not what is best for the average hunt. So it is best to keep goals grounded... When on a budget and needing only one to do the job, you need to be a little pragmatic with your choice.
Quote:
When shopping for an AR style .308, I think the SR-762 delivers more bang for your buck.
Given the above comments, I'm going to make a suggestion completely outside of the AR platform.

For about 1/2 the cost of the Ruger SR-762, you could get an FN FNAR. The Heavy has a 20-inch barrel, while the standard has a 16-inch barrel. Both have pistol grips. In a standard stock configuration is the FNAR Competition.

The only problems with the FNAR are the cost of the magazines and you need a 20 MOA scope base (like a Nightforce) for mounting a scope for long range use. However, the money saved on the rifle would allow you to buy a number of magazines and the scope base.

For hunting, with occasional long range target usage, it would be a fine semi-auto .308 rifle choice.
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Old January 1, 2014, 12:17 PM   #87
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I have read that the FN FNAR is a real PITA to clean ... comments.
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Old January 1, 2014, 02:25 PM   #88
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Quote:
I have read that the FN FNAR is a real PITA to clean ... comments.
Compared to an AR style rifle - yes. It takes time + tools to push out pins, remove two screws etc. But, it is a piston operation rifle, so it runs cleaner than a DI gun.

It's sort of like how many times do you really need to disassemble a semi-auto shotgun? I have yet to remove the bolt on my FN SLP and rarely even clean the gas piston - which should be the dirtiest part of the gun.

Last edited by buckhorn_cortez; January 1, 2014 at 02:34 PM.
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Old January 1, 2014, 06:42 PM   #89
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soooo, hooiserdave, we are eagerly waiting to see what you went with
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Old January 1, 2014, 10:23 PM   #90
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I like the new Ruger, it seems like a good option. It isn't free floated if that matters though.

I don't know much about the FNAR to say if it is good or not. The magazine issue may be a turn off though.
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