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Old December 29, 2013, 09:58 AM   #51
SR420
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Bart B., I've posted and re-posted a quote from an article that I also linked to. I was hoping that you would read the information I shared. If you think there is a problem with the information in the article, then I suggest you take it up with the person or persons that wrote it.
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Old December 29, 2013, 10:05 AM   #52
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tobnpr, there's several ways to define the accuracy of a rifle as well as ways to determine it. One method is whatever ends up with the smallest numerical definition; i.e., smallest few-shot group fired. Another's at the other end of the measuring type spectrum; extreme spread of several dozen shots fired.

Either one could be observed in shooting 200 shots in a group. Three of them fired in succession may well be 1/4 MOA; that happens. Yet the extreme spread of all 200 is 2 MOA.
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Old December 29, 2013, 10:11 AM   #53
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SR420, there is a problem with that claim. Benchresters don't seem to have a problem with blast waves disturbing their bullets shooting in the zeros winning matches and setting records. Neither does any other competitive shooting discipline's barrels without supressors on them. Blast waves at the muzzle do not change bullet's flight when they're even all the way around them.

And dampening out barrel whip doesn't improve accuracy. If it did, then long, skinny and whippy 30 inch barrels would not shoot 155-gr. bullets from .308 cases as accurate as short, thick, stiff ones do.
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Old December 29, 2013, 10:13 AM   #54
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Houndog, you make some very good points... it's a good thing if you can test drive a rifle before deciding to buy it.

Bart B., The 'problem' is in your interpretation of what was written in that article.

BTW, what's a benchrester?
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Old December 29, 2013, 10:16 AM   #55
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Benchrester; someone who shoots rifles in free recoil as they rest atop something on a bench.

SR420: Please explain it then and maybe my interpretion will change. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Old December 29, 2013, 10:26 AM   #56
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Bart B, Maybe you could explain why groups tighten when a modern sound suppressor is used.
I have witnessed this 'group tightening' phenomenon first hand, do you know why this happens without fail?
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Old December 29, 2013, 10:43 AM   #57
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On a short, stiff barrel, any weight added to its muzzle will cause bullets to leave at a different point in its muzzle vertical swing axis. If that's a better place for the bullets to leave for accuracy way down range, then fine.

It's the weight on the muzzle that does that as it makes the "barrel" longer and whip at a different frequency and amplitude. Baffles in sound supressors have nothing to do with how the barrel's resonant and harmonic multiple frequencies numbers change nor its whip amplitudes change.

The claim states the baffles make bullets shoot straighter. That's what I'm disputing. People have been putting "tuner" weights on barrel muzzles on everything from .22 rimfire on up through centerfire calibers. Moving them back and forth changes the barrel's whip frequencies so the bullets leave at a slightly different muzzle vertical axis angle.

As quick as a bullet leaves a short barrel, it probably leave while the muzzle axis is on the downswing from its high point at the top; bad for long range accuracy. If the barrel's whip frequency can be lowered, the bullet will leave at the same time, but while the muzzle's on its upswing near the top of its arc; best for long range accuracy.
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Old December 29, 2013, 11:04 AM   #58
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Quote:
The claim states the baffles make bullets shoot straighter. That's what I'm disputing.
Quote:
I have witnessed this 'group tightening' phenomenon first hand, do you know why this happens without fail?
When a modern sound suppressor is utilized bullets do shoot straighter, and grouping does tighten-up, but we don't know exactly why.
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Old December 29, 2013, 11:17 AM   #59
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SILENCER 101

True or false:
Adding a silencer to a rifle increases the rifle's accuracy. The answer is true...

True or false:
Adding a silencer to a rifle increases the muzzle velocity. Again, the answer is true.
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Old December 29, 2013, 03:11 PM   #60
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Quote:
Bart B, Maybe you could explain why groups tighten when a modern sound suppressor is used.
I have witnessed this 'group tightening' phenomenon first hand, do you know why this happens without fail?
SR420,

It doesn't happen "without fail" in my experience.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....ing-suppressor
http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers...ize-print.html
http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...uppressor-DROP

A can can cause an increase in accuracy, no change, or a decrease. You won't know which until you try it out.

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Old December 29, 2013, 04:55 PM   #61
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Jimro, it didn't happen when 20" long ones were put on Rem 700 heavy barrel sniper rifles for SEAL team use. Wasn't a big issue as so rigged, the reduced accuracy didn't matter for short range use.
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Old December 29, 2013, 05:27 PM   #62
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Jimro,
The key word I used to describe my personal experience with consistent &
repeatable accuracy when a modern sound suppressor was used is 'modern'.
The Wind Talker that I am using is a modern design, it was assembled correctly,
and it was built for the primary host rifle (M14).

Problems with the host rifle can make any suppressor function poorly.
Suppressors that are poorly designed and assembled incorrectly are also a problem.
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Old December 29, 2013, 05:37 PM   #63
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When the most accurate rifles today get more accurate with a supressor attached, I may be convinced. I await that being all over www.accurateshooter.com. But I'm not holding my breath.
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Old December 29, 2013, 05:39 PM   #64
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Bart B, what suppressor are you currently using?
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Old December 29, 2013, 06:27 PM   #65
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I use one of two types of suppressors. EAR custom molded ones or a Leight LM-77; both protect my hearing very well. My rifles don't use any at all; they've no need of them.
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Old December 29, 2013, 06:53 PM   #66
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You don't own or use a sound suppressor, Bart B.

And, no 1st hand experience with a modern sound suppressor.

Thanks.
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Old December 30, 2013, 12:01 AM   #67
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I have a Les Baer .308 Semi-Auto Sniper, The rifle has a 20-inch, Les Baer heavy weight barrel with the Enforcer muzzle brake.

The gun, weighs 11 pounds. With a 3.8 - 22X U.S. Optics scope - right at 13 pounds - not hardly handy for a day walking in the field shooting game - but it is damn accurate from a bench to 1,000 yards.

It will shoot 0.375 10-shot groups at 100 yards using Federal Premium Gold Medal Match ammunition. This ammunition uses a Sierra 168 grain boat tail bullet at 2650 feet-per-second. I have tested this on two occasions in a 100 yard tunnel with repeatable results. The gun was shot from sand bags and the top of the barrel sand bagged to help keep it steady during aiming.

Here are some observations on .308 AR's in my long range usage over the past two years. Bullet concentricity related to the case central axis can kill accuracy. I test every round with a concentricity gage to verify that they are with 0.0005 of zero deviation - or they become short range ammunition.

You will never shoot enough .308 in one day to make a difference in how clean the gun runs between a DI or piston gun - at least if what you're shooting is for long range accuracy. Heat is the enemy and you need to let the barrel cool to some extent or, once again, you start losing accuracy. This alone will limit the amount of rounds you will run in one session. It's not like an AR15 where you can easily go through 500-1,000 rounds. If you shoot 200 in one session, believe me - that's a lot.

The Les Baer bolt + carrier are NP3 coated. I just take them out and wipe them off with a cloth, oil lightly, wipe out the interior of the receiver and reassemble - the rifle just doesn't get all that dirty like an AR15. In an AR10 - the piston VS DI operation debate is nonsensical for long range rifle use - it really doesn't matter - and, for reference I run a Barrett REC7 AR15 - so I have a piston rifle.

Wind drift between the gun location and target location is the biggest problem to overcome. Get a notebook and a hand held anemometer - take copious notes every time you shoot. The more "dope" you have on how the gun shoots - the more repeatable the results.

I've been able to hit an 18-inch steel torso target repeatedly at 960 yards in a variable 9-15 mph cross wind by very carefully observing the conditions and waiting for the breeze to drop across the entire distance - and then using the horizontal compensation required on the Mil reticle for a 10mph wind from my notes. If you don't keep shooting notes - forget it.

Have fun with your new rifle!
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Old December 30, 2013, 12:05 AM   #68
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What's the cost?

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Old December 30, 2013, 12:59 AM   #69
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http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10TNF

Armalite AR-10 T $1914

SR-420...I get it that you have a passion for the M1A/M14 platform.No problem.

I like all of the old battle rifles.I like my Garand.I like my 1903A4 clone.

Enjoy your passion!I don't want to rain on your parade.

I notice you set your M-1A's up to be as near as you can get to an AR layout,pistol grip,straight line stock,the wood is replaced with aluminum and plastic

So,to get the trigger of an AR-10(
lets put in a Gisselle or Jewell for another $230...can you get there?)),and to get a serious optic mount system...like the AR flattop,how much do you have to spend?

How much will it weigh?

I've said before,its the Harley of rifles.Thats not a bad thing.

But I know something about a AR-10 T with a 20 in fluted NM Kreiger bbl and an M1 Leupold mil-dot with a Gisselle trigger and Daniel defense rail.

It shoots.And it has been shooting long enough the original Badger cut rifled barrel was loosening up to 2 in to 2 1/2 in groups at 300 yds(at around 6000 rds),so brother rebarreled it.Its better than ever now.It does not malfunction,and nothing is broken or worn out.

For about $2600 here is a fancied up DPMS,Its 9.75 lbs

http://www.dpmsinc.com/NATO-REPR_ep_94-1.html

Last edited by HiBC; December 30, 2013 at 01:22 AM.
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Old December 30, 2013, 08:52 AM   #70
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HiBC, you have a passion for the AR10... we get that. Enjoy your passion!

I don't want to rain on your parade, but the AR10 is an OLD battle rifle
and some are now set up with a piston system, trying to be like the M14.

I liked my Armalite AR10, but not enough to keep it. Sold it, built another M14, NO regrets!

BTW, I've noticed that well built M14 rifles tend to hold their value
much better than AR10s... some M14s actually increase in value.


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Old December 30, 2013, 11:43 AM   #71
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Quote:
What's the cost?
In reference to the Les Baer rifle - I paid $3150 ordered through Crazy John. At the time I ordered it, the wait time was 6-8 months. Mine took 6.5 months to receive from when it was ordered. The US Optics scope took about the same length of time to receive from when it was ordered.

It's a nicely made rifle, comes with a Geissele trigger. Mine was test fired by Les Baer as it came with two, 100 yard test targets signed & dated by Les Baer.
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Old December 30, 2013, 12:10 PM   #72
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Quote:
What's the cost?


Quote:
buckhorn_cortez: In reference to the Les Baer rifle - I paid $3150 ordered through Crazy John. At the time I ordered it, the wait time was 6-8 months. Mine took 6.5 months to receive from when it was ordered. The US Optics scope took about the same length of time to receive from when it was ordered. It's a nicely made rifle, comes with a Geissele trigger. Mine was test fired by Les Baer as it came with two, 100 yard test targets signed & dated by Les Baer.
Very nice!

I do like a company that takes the time to test fire before shipping.

Thank you for the reply.
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Old December 30, 2013, 07:32 PM   #73
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But,420,what is the title of the OP's post?Something about an AR-10,right?And he has a priority of long range accuracy,right?

You have been doing a rather hard sell,yes?

On pistons,take your choice,no problem.I,personally,would not consider a piston AR,so retro'ing to an M-14 is gas system is,IMO,not a step in the right direction for the purpose of long range accuracy.IMO,the good accuracy you achieve is in spite of,not due to,the piston system,and,for accuracy puroses,DI is inherently superior.

I will concede if horrible,filthy,charcoal and grit and coffee grounds ammo is used,a DI gun can get monkeyed up.

Precision ammo for a precision rifle,no problem.Varget burns quite clean in an AR.

But I had some ammo loaded with a recommended ball "Camp Perry" powder that ground my very dependable STG-58 to a stop in two mags.Quite piston.Good rifle ,anyway.Due to gas system,groups walk as it heats up.

I knew some folks who belonged to the Society for the Preservation of Colorful Anachronisms. Good folks!Fun! Quirky...but fun.

On prices,that may be because more and more outfits are producing the AR-10.Its becoming common,therefore,greater value for the buck,equals cheaper.
Whereas,the M-14 platform seems to be becoming more rare,therefore,collectable.

And...well,the time may be coming when the Curio and Relic folks and the NRA competition folks and the wood and steel M-14 folks might get all squinty eyed and call you Bubba.

But,I am smiling .You do build some awesome rifles,and I'm sure they perform.

Peace.

Last edited by HiBC; December 30, 2013 at 07:50 PM.
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Old December 30, 2013, 08:02 PM   #74
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Hey HiBC, the OP desires a platform with a little more 'reach and punch', especially for 500-1,000 yard shots. Right?

The OP listed rifles that he liked, and the M1A made the list. Right?


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Old December 30, 2013, 10:58 PM   #75
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420,you edited your post.I was going to request "Get over it,please,thank you"

We are a polite society here,aren't we?

Now,to answer your question:I'm not sure what your point is.I read it as the OP wanted a .308 class as he wanted to reach out farther than the 223 class rifles.

He did list the 16 in SOCOM M1A.That is a particular rifle.Do you think a SOCOM16 is a particularly good selection for the OP's needs?Would a SOCOM16 be competitive with a Knight SR-25 at the specified longer ranges without taking the receiver and turning it into a completely different rifle?Or are you saying the M-14 based creations in 308 with a 1 in 10 twist and a 24 in barrel are effective at longer ranges than a 1 in 10 in twist 24 in bbl AR-10?

Sure,you are as welcome as anyone.Glad you are here!It just seemed you were getting a bit testy with Bart and pushing the M1A package pretty hard.

I decided to play,too.All in good fun,420,no need to get wedgied up.

Ever listen to a flathead ford V-8 with Hi-Comp heads and a couple of Stromberg 97's on it wind up?My old 53 Ford pickup sure did sound pretty with that chwaaaaAAAgh carb noise.It would go a hundred.Crash box 4 speed,no synchros,clutch optional.
And,instead of a Harley,I rode a Triumph...3 cylinder,Big D cycles 860 cc kit.
Its all good...just toys,we are having fun.

Now,while it is no longer offered by Armalite,the previously mentioned Ar-10 in addition to .308,is equipt with an optional Armalite's .300 RSAUM upper...two pins,away we go.Seems like about 2800 with 200 gr bullets,2950 with 180's.Longer range.

But it just does not matter.AR-10 or M-14,both just plug up one end of the barrel .And they are both fine rifles.

Last edited by HiBC; December 30, 2013 at 11:14 PM.
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