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Old December 26, 2013, 12:31 PM   #1
HoosierDave1967
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My First .308 AR-10

This is my first posting so I do not expect long time members to jump in and solve my dilemma, but any advice will be greatly appreciated. Over the past few years, I have purchased an AMSEC TLTR 30x6 vault, a Glock .45 ACP, a Kimber Custom II .45 ACP, a .45 Taurus, a Savage .308 rifle and .22 LR rifle for my son, and several shotguns. Can you say Prepper? LOL Besides my Kimber, most of the firearms I have purchased are solid but what I would not consider exceptional. I take my firearms and safe storage very seriously as I am a single father of a 7 year old boy, who just started to shoot a .22lr Savage I bought for 'the both of us'. :=) I am very familiar with handguns and small caliber rifles and shotguns, but have zero experience with AR platforms/ short, tactical semi-auto rifles.

So, I want to round out my collection with an AR platform and have decided to purchase a .308 for several reasons: I already have thousands of .308 rounds, desire a platform with a little more 'reach and punch', especially for 500-1,000 yard shots, and have shot a few .308 AR's and enjoyed the experience more than shooting 5.56/.223 calibers.

So, my question is this: my budget is $2,000 - 3,750 for just the rifle. I like the following rifles:

1) Sig 716 Patrol FDE .308 win in 16" barrel
2) M1A SOCOM .308 win in 16" barrel
3) LaRue OBR 7.62 in either 18" or 20" barrel
4) LaRue PREDATOBR 7.62 in either 16.1" or 18" barrel
5) GAP-10 .308 WIN in 16.1" up to 22" barrel
6) Knights SR-25 7.62 / .308 win in 16" barrel

Any suggestions? I am seeking great customer service, longevity, accuracy and 'great fun factor'. I plan to get a scope and bipod, but will not be going crazy with attachments, so I am not concerned about 'add on capability'.

I have read numerous articles/posts which state 18" sub length barrels are inaccurate out past 300-500 yards and to truly shoot accurately from 600-1,000 yards plus, you need at least an 18" but preferably 20"+ barrel.
Is there any truth to this?

Also, is it better to obtain an AR which is chambered specifically in .308 win due to 'cartridge differences' between the .308 win and the 7.62 NATO? I have received mixed input on this issue. Some state that a 5.56 will shoot both the 5.56 and the .223 but not the reverse, and that the .308 win will shoot both the .308 win and the 7.62 NATO but NOT the reverse. Since I own thousands of .308 win rounds (half are reman practice rounds and half are Hornady TAP FPD and other high quality ammo) I do not want to purchase a rifle which will not fire these rounds.

I am a beginner with AR platforms, but have a friend of mine who is a former military sniper to train me, so I want to purchase a solid AR. This rifle will most likely become my go to firearm and primary weapon for a variety of uses. Primary use will be for home defense, range practice, plinking on friends farms, but I do want to use it for hunting on occasion, which will involve 500+ yard shots.

I truly appreciate any and all input. And thanks to all of you who actually took the time to read my post and take the time to respond. Happy Holidays and Happy New Year.
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Old December 26, 2013, 01:38 PM   #2
Jimro
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Ok, I'll bite.

What do you want to do with this rifle? What niche do you see it filling in your collection?

Of the rifles on your list, the option I find least objectionable is the GAP option, as they will build you exactly what you ask for.

16 inch barrels are fine for hunting (not something you can do in Indiana legally with a 308). Between 16 and 24 inches barrel length doesn't play too much into accuracy unless you are using iron sights where the longer barrel can give you a better sight radius. It sounds like you are planning to use some sort of optic though.

I personally wouldn't buy any of the rifles on your list. If you want a "sniper rifle" for those 500-1000 yard shots, get a DPMS LR-308 with 24" barrel. If you want a compact, handy patrol rifle that you can put on a red dot or use a battlesight zero, get a DPMS AP4 with 16" barrel, alternately a S&W M&P-10 would be fine as well. If you want a "compromise" option where you have more "battle rifle" than "sniper rifle" or "carbine" get a DPMS LR-308B with a 18" barrel.

Hope this helps.

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Old December 26, 2013, 03:59 PM   #3
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For me of that list I think the M1A meets all the criteria. Though it is not an ar platform it is on the list. Fun, reliable and will take all the mods u mention. I have an ar10, but prefer the cleaner shooting, supremely accurate Springfield over all the others.
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Old December 26, 2013, 06:04 PM   #4
Bart B.
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If you want a little more accuracy along with more "reach" and "punch:"

The US Army recently rebuilt some AR10's to shoot .308 Win. handloaded ammo a lot more accurate than their M14NM's ever did. They used handloads with peak pressure higher than normal.

Note that ballistically and efficiently, there's no difference between the .308 Win. and 7.62 NATO rounds. .308 Win. commercial match ammo was always better than any arsenal match ammo as far as accuracy was concerned. With the best of both M1's and M14NM's, commercial match ammo always shot better than arsenal match ammo. Handloads will better the commercial stuff.
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Old December 26, 2013, 09:02 PM   #5
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My two cents -

A. Unless you plan to consistently shoot out to 600+ yards stick with a 16-18 inch barrel. barrel length has little to do with accuracy. The chief advantage of a longer barrel is higher velocity, which translates into a longer effective range. But a 16 inch barrel should get you out to 600+ yards and will make for a lighter gun that is easier to shoot offhand.

B. At your price range you have a lot of great choices. it might be helpful if you prioritized what is most important to you. Accuracy? Fit and finish? Real world Reliability? do you want to stick with a DI gun or are you interested in a piston?

C. Not trying to make your life more difficult, but if I were you I'd add the following mfgs. To your list:

POF
LMT
PWS

Finally be sure to leave room in your budget for a good scope. Depending on what you want this can run from $500 to north of $2000.
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Old December 26, 2013, 09:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
4) LaRue PREDATOBR 7.62 in either 16.1" or 18" barrel
Get the 18 inch barrel.

Jim
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Old December 26, 2013, 11:10 PM   #7
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I already have a SA SOCOM 16....I really like the gun....I recently purchased my first AR 10..A S&W M&P....I'm already crazy bout this rifle....I looked at a DPMS AR 10 recently too..I liked it also....
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Old December 27, 2013, 01:10 AM   #8
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What are the primary ranges you'll be shooting at, and what are your secondary requirements. If you want to be taking a lot of 500-1000yd shots, you'll probably want the 18in or longer barrels for added velocity. If you want the "hard hitting" carbine, with long shots being abnormal, you can compromise accuracy a little and save length/weight.

Larue makes some great stuff, and I seem to recall several people winning longer range challenges with OBRs. That said, you certainly pay for it!
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Old December 27, 2013, 01:28 AM   #9
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Hm. A couple of observations...

First, the .308 Winchester is a good caliber. It will most definitely do the job. However--if you are primarily looking at close range targets--300 yards and in--consider a rifle chambered in 5.56 NATO. Loaded with appropriate bullets, the little bullet can deliver outstanding terminal ballistics.

That being said....

Most of the guns you mentioned are built on the AR platform. I have nothing against the AR platform--indeed, I love the things, in every shape size and configuration. However, the rifles built on this design do have a few drawbacks:

1. Difficult to keep clean if you shoot a lot.
2. They like to be run WET. Good amounts of lube.
3. You CAN achieve very good accuracy--but in order to do it, you're going to have to jump through a few hoops. A off the shelf barrel--or a rifle that is mass produced--will more than likely not give you the accuracy that you want.

Barrel length is really not a problem; you can have one built to your specs, but you're going to be out just a bit more money.

If you're going to buy ONE rifle, and ONE only, I'd say chuck it--and get yourself a full sized Springfield Armory M1A loaded model. Next, drop a bit of coin and put it in a Sage EBR chassis. Stock up on some good magazines from Check Mate--OEM contractor for military magazines--and get a good three point sling. Choose your optics, and with proper ammo (and a 1-10" twist barrel), you'll have that 1000 yard rifle.

However, if you want to combine the best of both worlds, look up the Colt 901 rifle. I think you'll like it.
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Old December 27, 2013, 08:54 AM   #10
Bart B.
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If good accuracy to any range beyond 600 up to 1000 yards is an objective with commercial ammo, a 24" barrel is required. Shorter barrels typically won't shoot bullets fast enough to keep them supersonic in cooler weather. And commercial barrels typically shoot commercial ammo's bullets slower than what it's specs say it has.

What .308 ammo do you plan to use in your semiauto?
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Old December 27, 2013, 09:26 AM   #11
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HoosierD, The M14 type rifle with either an 18" or 22" barrel with a 1:10 ROT will do everything you have mentioned.
Generally: 147/150 gr. inside 400 yards, 168 gr. 350 to 800, and LC M118 LR or equivalent 750 to 1000 yards.
You can reach 1000 yards with the 18", but the 22" is going to provided you with an increase in muzzle velocity.

PowderMan mentioned the SAGE EBR chassis, and yes it is an excellent way to enhance the accuracy of the M14 type rifle...
Google the ARMY M14EBR-RI and check out the accuracy they get out of rack grade USGI M14s bolted into the EBR chassis.

This is my long range M14, custom built for me by Smith Enterprise (SEI).
It is a Crazy Horse M21A5 with a 22" medium heavy barrel with a 1:10 ROT.
The optional Wind Talker suppressor helps to further tighten up groups




I owned a really nice AR-10 with a 20" medium weight barrel, plus a
complete 16" carbine upper... I sold it to fund another SEI M14 build.
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Old December 27, 2013, 09:50 AM   #12
Bart B.
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This comment about SR420's supressor on his rifle:
Quote:
The optional Wind Talker suppressor helps to further tighten up groups
Exactly, how does that supressor change the bullets behaviour leaving the barrel's muzzle so they are both perfectly balanced and directionally changed to improve their accuracy down range compared to the barrel without that supressor? Better yet, what does it have inside it that detects bullet flight anomolies so it'll know how to correct them?

If it really does that, then the physics that cause it must be phenomenal as well as unheard of until now.

To date, I've not seen anything claiming 1 MOA accuracy (extreme spread) at any range past 600 yards with this enhanced M14 design called a Crazy Horse M21A5. From what I've gleaned, the SEI military one's accuracy spec at 300 yards is 1.5 MOA extreme spread, but only for 5 shots; accuracy degrades past that range.
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Old December 27, 2013, 10:29 AM   #13
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HoosierDave1967 I understand your affinity for an AR-10. My first rifle was an M16 (back in '72-75) but it only made sense as an automatic weapon that can shoot 3 round bursts.

I like your list because it implies that you want top quality and are willing to pay for it. However, you've overlooked what I believe is the best AR-10 out there. The POF .308.

What makes POF different is
1. It is a piston rifle not a gas impingement AR, and that is a big difference. If you don't know the difference, find out.
2. The POF is also one of the few that has a 20" barrel, which for a long range round like the .308 is a must.
3. The final reason that makes it unique is that all its components are coated in NP3. That is a special Teflon that goes into the metal pores. Nothing sticks to it. You will never have to worry about copper fouling in the barrel or carbon build up. Everything just slides off with a patch. Once you experience it you'll want it on all your prized guns.

The first time you shoot you know you've got the best semi rifle money can buy. Great for pig slaughtering.

I mated mine with a Swarovski Z6 5-30x50 and it shoots almost as well as my Savage 10. It does have about 1/4 inch more dispersion at 100 yards.
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Old December 27, 2013, 10:54 AM   #14
SR420
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In response to comments made by Bart B. concerning accuracy.
Your comments have me believing that you have magically co-mingled stats from the M14EBR-RI and the Crazy Horse M14... they are very different animals.

Quote:
TACOM M14EBR-RI:
TACOM won’t accept anything that shoots more than 1½ MOA, the average group measures .97 MOA.
During my visit, four rifles were tested and the poorest accuracy was .76 MOA. The best rifle produced an incredible .44 MOA.


SOURCE No sound suppressor.

***************

Smith Enterprise, Inc. made this M21A5, it was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008.
The rifle fired groups under 1 MOA (SUB MOA) at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo. No sound suppressor.



***************


In response to comments made by Bart B. concerning sound suppressor accuracy.

I can't explain it, but it's not just the Wind Talker, it's ALL modern sound suppressors.

Quote:
Modern suppressors allow the use of full-power ammunition, do not reduce the muzzle velocity, do not contact the bullet during flight, and often aid accuracy.
SOURCE

***************

I shot this group with a suppressed 16.25" barreled M14 using 147 gr. NATO ball and an Aimpoint Comp M4s with 2 MOA dot... you can cover the 3-shot group with a Nickel.





***************

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any company that sells firearms, ordnance, etc... I'm just a customer.



.
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Old December 27, 2013, 11:21 AM   #15
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SR420, thanks for the information. I probably did co-mingle some things; I've done that before. Such is life with people who are not perfect in their behaviour.

It looks like you've mentioned group averages and some of the smallest ones.

I'm interested only in what the biggest groups are. That's what can be counted on all the time. Any rifle will shoot tiny groups once in a while but most of the others are much larger. And the biggest groups shot to get an average are always larger (sometimes as much as 3 times larger) than average.

Still patiently waiting for an explanation as to how supressors improve accuracy.
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Old December 27, 2013, 11:32 AM   #16
SR420
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Bart, all information that I have read indicates that both the M14EBR-RI
and Crazy Horse rifles deliver repeatable accuracy on the battlefield.
The SAGE system keeps the standard GI barrel consistently accurate.
The Crazy Horse M14 uses a new medium heavy barrel and other mods
to maintain it's accuracy. The accuracy of my civilian Crazy Horse builds
have not degraded over time, and the round count is well over 1K.

Ammunition and the individual sending it have the biggest effect on accuracy.

I can't explain why a modern suppressor enhances accuracy, but I have
witnessed 1st hand the positive effect on my accuracy many, many times.
The Wind Talker even makes my 7.62x39 AK more accurate...


I did find this: SOURCE

Quote:
The Blast Baffle and Its Effect on Accuracy

The most critical moment in a bullet's flight path is just after it exits the barrel, where the highly elastic and more rapidly moving gasses overtake it and press upon its base. The first baffle in a suppressor is called, appropriately, the blast baffle. This is the most critical component in the entire baffle stack. The blast baffle is subject to a great deal of heat, stress and impact. Many baffles have asymmetrical surfaces, and these can bounce the blast of high-pressure gas around in a way that disturbs the stability of an exiting bullet. When we first started experimenting with asymmetrical S, Z and K style baffles this phenomenon became painfully obvious. Keyholing, tumbling and baffle contact were common because the bottle-shaped blast of muzzle gas overtook the exiting bullets, deflected off the asymmetrical surfaces, and then deflected the bullets. Accuracy was not good. Some manufacturers haven't learned this lesson yet, and their suppressors are plagued with inherent instability and resultant accuracy problems.

The blast baffle must have a perfectly symmetrical, coaxially aligned surface and bore. It must be made of fairly tough steel, stainless steel or inconel. If it is made of a soft material like copper, brass, titanium or aluminum, the high-velocity impact from unburned grains of powder will peen the surfaces - eventually reducing the size of the bore orifice to the point where destabilizing bullet contact results.

A properly designed blast baffle will strip and deflect much of the bottle-shaped blast of high-pressure gas that envelops and pursues the departing bullet. For this reason, one can logically expect an increase in practical accuracy when a properly designed suppressor has been installed. Also, the weight of a heavy steel unit tied to both the center and end of a rifle barrel does beneficial things for harmonic barrel vibration - dampening out much of it. These two factors greatly increase the practical accuracy potential of a suppressed rifle. The properly suppressed rifle becomes very stable and reliable. Larger internal clearances reduce the likelihood of baffle contact in the event that the suppressor or barrel get slightly damaged or bent.



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Old December 27, 2013, 02:13 PM   #17
HoosierDave1967
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Recommendations

First of all, thanks to everyone for their honest and informed input. I am reading through all the replies, so please be patient with me.

As for what I am seeking in a .308 semi-auto platform:

1) Rifle reliability and continual MAO accuracy
2) Longevity of barrel, and parts
3) Great Customer Service if I ever experience an issue
4) Ease of cleaning
5) Retain value

I like the input about the POF coating which cuts down on fouling.

Intended Uses:

1) 60% will be range time (200 - 1,000 yards at several IN ranges)
2) 30% will be local varmint/pig hunting on several properties out in country
3) 10% will be out of state hunting where .308 is legal
4) All percentages subject to diversion to SHTF scenarios. :=)

Ammo:

1) 155-178 grain Freedom Munitions reman (for target), so I would like a platform with different gas settings, like the Sig 716
2) I have several thousand rounds of Hornady BTHP Match and A-Max ammo, ranging from 155-178 gr, so I have plenty of high quality ammo, but not hand-load
3) I will be learning hand loading techniques from a former military sniper friend of mine for future cost saving, but that is years down the road.

I already own a .308 Savage rifle in 24", so I have long range shots covered, although the MOA on this package is less than accurate. I paid less than $1,000 for the rifle as an 'affordable learning rifle' and have shot 1,000+ rounds through it. It really sucks past 500 yards, as the barrel is not high quality, but it is a great beginner rifle and if I get rid of it, I won't break the bank.

I have had much success in the past with Sig customer service for pistols I used to own, but have never dealt with the other manufacturers. I have read numerous 'poor' customer service reviews online regarding POF, but have also come to learn that there is much 'gamesmanship' between manufacturers. One of the things I look for online is 'rifle dumping'.

I have noticed that there are tons of new/used Sig 716 Patrol FDE's for sale, but very few LaRue OBR's, GAP-10's, or Knights Armory rifles, etc. To me this says that the later rifles hold their value better and has a higher level of customer satisfaction.

I do realize that Sig produces more rifles per annum than G.A., so I do take this into account, but I like the fact that the later companies have high demand for their product, great resale value, and a bit of a wait. Always a good sign in any market setting.

Finally, being new to these platforms, and truly appreciating all the input, I must confess that I am not at a point where building my own rifle would be such a great idea as my knowledge level is 'Beginner'.

Hence my desire to purchase a great 'out of the box' rifle that will be a great learning tool, will be reliable, will be continually accurate, and if and when I sell, will not leave me in the hole: where I can roll a good percentage of the rifles cost into a new platform. If I REALLY like the rifle, I will never sell it and will then build a second platform from scratch in a few years once I have more knowledge.
Thanks again for all the input.

I am leaning towards the GAP-10 20", LaRue 18" OBR (favorite so far), POF 20" .308.

Again, besides adding a sling, bipod and slapping on a scope, I want a platform I can take out of the box, easily read the directions, clean, then take to the range, break in with no issues (hopefully), then shoot to my hearts content.
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Old December 27, 2013, 04:55 PM   #18
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HoosierDave1967,
First a disclaimer, I'm not in any shape or form affiliated with any way with any company that sells firearms, ammunitions, etc... I'm just a customer.

Looking at the GAP-10 20" and the LaRue 18" OBR, the first thing that jumps at me is that these are both gas guns not piston.

Gas is the first generation of AR's. The problem with gas guns is that the "poop where they eat". The hot gases and carbon get recycled back into the chamber and bolt, making them hot and dirty. That is exactly why the piston guns came on the scene. They took all the best the AR had to offer and improved it by removing the heat and carbon from the cycle. Carbon is the major culprit in damaging rifle. It is very hard, scars steel, if compressed enough it becomes diamonds.

Read about piston rifles and there is no way you'll consider a gas impingement over a piston. That's what makes it 100 times cleaner and more reliable than a regular AR. If you plan on using a suppressor than a piston rifle is a must. The POF has a plug that you rotate to S (suppressor) mode and you're ready to go.

The only other gun that comes close to a POF is an LWRC, but they are not NP3 coated and the last time I looked they were more expensive then POF.

Additionally, about customer service, obviously when competitors can't compete in quality they resort to maligning their competition with fictitious claim by guys that don't even own a POF, but are selling other things.

I've only had to call POF once to get a front eyelet for my bipod. POF send it to me for free. The rifle works so well out of the box that I've never needed anything else. And I've had it since 2008 and put thousands of rounds through it. If I only could have one rifle, this is the one I would have. Fortunately that is not the case.
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Old December 27, 2013, 06:17 PM   #19
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HoosierDave1976,

The Gas Piston/Direct Impingement argument has been done to death. You keep a DI gun wet and it will keep going. You keep a piston gun wet and it will keep going. I've had malfunctions on DI guns and Piston guns, and having deployed three times with an M4, I'm happy to say that the DI guns do just fine.

So far though, I have not seen anyone shoot a piston gun as accurately as a DI gun, although one shooter with a Garand did earn the Presidents 100 tab this year. Statistically speaking, that is a huge outlier in a field dominated by the AR platform.

Don't be afraid of DI guns, they work just fine. You have to ask yourself if the slight accuracy loss of going to piston is worth having a slightly easier time cleaning the action.

Since your intended use is primarily range time, 60% of it 200-1k, then I recommend the 20" barreled options, with a standard A2 style fixed buttstock.

You should also look at Armalite offerings. http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.asp...0-49488ec48776 and http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.asp...3-83959df8252d

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Old December 27, 2013, 06:21 PM   #20
Jimro
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Bart B.

A few years back some internet commando told me that suppressors enhance accuracy, and he pointed to a suppressor manufacturers advertisement as proof that it does. I thought I might try a more unbiased source.

So I went to my BN Sniper section, who had just got back from the 15 month "surge" in Iraq, and asked how many rifles they had that benefitted from using suppressors. They said, "One, we had one M4 that turned into a tack driver with a suppressor on it. That lasted until it was rebarreled." It should be noted this was M855 ammo and a rack grade M4.

The rest of the sniper rifles (and rifles assigned to the snipers) did not benefit accuracy wise from having a long metal can attached to the muzzle. So you won't know whether your rifle will shoot tighter, looser, or stay the same until you test it.

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Old December 27, 2013, 07:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Jimro

So I went to my BN Sniper section, who had just got back from the 15 month "surge" in Iraq,
Wasn't that about 7 years ago?

I bet it was the same internet commando told everybody back in '04 that the renewed
use of the M14 was just a stop gap measure that would only last a year or two...


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Old December 27, 2013, 08:13 PM   #22
HoosierDave1967
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POF and Sig 716

I found a site which retails the SIG 716 Patrol FDE for $1,900 and the POF .308 in 16.5" Fluted BBL, with NP3 finish for $2,499, which is much less than the $3,250 listed on their website, plus it is in stock and will ship immediately.

So, I am leaning towards the POF or the SIG 716. I'm just not sure if I want to wait so long for a GAP-10, plus it will cost around $3,400 with suppressor threading, barrel fluting and muzzle break, which I believe is standard with POF and SIG.

So, if everyone who has replied only had these 2 platforms to choose between, which would it be?

Sig 716 Patrol FDE -or-

POF .308 in 16.5" or 20" barrel

Please recall I am looking for a good quality, first semi-auto .308 win platform. I don't expect perfection, just a solid rifle with good accuracy, fun to shoot, moderate-easy to clean, great customer service with perhaps a bit of cool factor.
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Old December 27, 2013, 08:51 PM   #23
Bart B.
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Supressors and accuracy. . . . .

Anything really close to the bullet's path can touch it if:

It's a raindrop. They caused accuracy problems with the M14NM's flash supressor until they got reamed out quite a bit.

It's part of a supressor that got bent from impact.

While nobody's offered any explanation as to exactly how a supressor improves accuracy, it will do one thing with the barrel as it makes the whole piece of metal hanging out of the receivers front end less stiff. With the barrel now whipping at a lower frequency that without it, the bullet can leave on the muzzle's down swing. Short stiff barrels in the 16 to 18 inch range typically have their muzzle axis on the down swing after its reached its top. Longer, whipper barrels doing so a lower frequencies have the bullet exiting on its muzzle axis upswing just before it peaks out; best place for long range accuracy.

I know of no semiauto factory rifle that'll shoot any commercially loaded bullet into no worse than 1 MOA at 1000 yards. It'll need to average at about 1/2 MOA to do that. That'll only happen with the very best handloaded ammuniton on this planet as well as a precision match grade barrel.

If HoosierDave wants 1 MOA accuracy at long range, he'll have to get at least a 20 inch barrel for his .308 Win. ammo then hope what he has will shoot its bullets fast enough to remain supersonic out to maximum range. Then handload his ammo.
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Old December 27, 2013, 08:58 PM   #24
tobnpr
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For your budget, the LMT, MWS.

http://www.lmtstore.com/featured-pro...ck-barrel.html

For one-third the price, I just bought a DPMS LR-308 that "supposedly" (from online reviews) will shoot better than 3/4 minute. 24", full-bull, 10-twist, stainless barrel. Darn near fifteen pounds loaded...

As well made as the LMT? Not even close...but I'd be willing to wager it'll shoot darn near as well as the rifle three times it's cost with only a trigger upgrade.

But then again, I'm no operator, and this stick isn't going to see combat.

Sure, you can spend four or five grand on a range gun/toy...

But why?
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Old December 27, 2013, 09:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
I found a site which retails the POF .308 in 16.5" Fluted BBL, with NP3 finish for $2,499
I would hold out for the 20" POF I think, a 308 with a 16.5" is a little too short. Generally each inch of barrel gives you an extra 15-20fps increase in velocity. That makes a difference past 300 yards, and you'll regret not having it past 600 yards.

In 2008 I paid slightly over $2,500 including shipping and FFL fees for my POF that I bought off Gunbroker, so prices haven't changed that much.

I'm not a Sig fan. I have no experience with their rifles. I've a had a couple of their pistols (226 and 1911) and I find them to be overpriced and overhyped. They are good guns but not worth the premium that they get. But YMMV.

Another thing about the Sig, a friend at the range has one of their bolt rifles. You can only get parts from Sig. He had to re-barrel his bolt rifle and it was more than double what it would cost for a Krieger or Bartlein barrel. He had a gunsmith make an adaptor so that he could get a quality barrel that he wanted. If you have to re-barrel the POF it's a non-issue, not to mention that because of the NP3 coating a barrel should last twice as long as the Sig.
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Last edited by Eppie; December 27, 2013 at 09:31 PM.
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