The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > NFA Guns and Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 24, 2013, 12:22 AM   #1
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
Thoughts on this...

Ive got a 9" bbl AAC upper in 300 blackout on a pistol lower. Im waiting on my form 1 to come back on a rifle lower to SBR it (might be 6-9 months). So im thinking about getting one of the Sig arm braces to put on until then.

My other thought is that when i travel with the little beast i can use the pistol lower with the brace and not have to hassle with ATF permission to take it outta state

Third, if i use it as a HD gun i would rather have a pistol lower taken as evidence (if it came to that) then have a tax stamped lower.

Any thoughts on this plan??
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 03:18 AM   #2
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
Any thoughts on this plan??
Seems like a good idea to me. Many people are using the SIG arm brace to replace the need to SBR it altogether; it works just as well as a stock and the only real downside is that it's not easily adjustable.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 10:35 AM   #3
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
Thanks for the reply. Ive got one ordered. Now i just gotta figure out where i put that standard pistol buffer tube
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 03:54 PM   #4
Coach Z
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2011
Location: CT / RI
Posts: 683
You still need the pistol buffer tube

I just got one of the sig braces and it is just the molded plastic that slides onto your existing buffer tube so you'll need that existing tube.

One issue I ran into was my pistol buffer tube (Phase 5) was bigger then then the average pistol buffer tube and it wouldn't fit on so I had to get a smaller diameter buffer tube for the sig brace to work.
__________________
Love my guns
Coach Z is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 05:57 PM   #5
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
I went out to the storage shed and found both a standard pistol buffer tube and an A1 tube. Im going to try em both and see which i like best for LOP. I mean which feels best attached to my arm
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 06:23 PM   #6
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
I wouldn't use that A1 buffer tube if I were you. The use of any buffer tube that is designed to accept a stock will make it an unregistered SBR, which is why you can't use a normal carbine buffer tube on a pistol unless you machine off the notches and make it incapable of accepting a stock.

Considering a rifle buffer tube can also be used to attach a stock, if you put an un-modified A1 buffer tube on a pistol the BATFE will consider it an unregistered SBR. They make pistol buffer tubes for a reason; they're not designed to accept any kind of stock.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 08:04 PM   #7
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
Beg to differ

With the case of thompson/center vs US. The courts ruled that a firearm registered as a pistol can be made into a rifle by the addition of a 16"+ barrel and then have a stock attached. It can then be made back into a pistol by reversing the process. Case law here, not legal conjecture.

With an AR type firearme the process is remove the pistol length upper.. Put on the 16" upper and then slide your stock on. As long as the "short" upper and stock are never on at the same time, all is legal.

Having a carbine buffer tube on a pistol lower is 100% legal and facilatates this process.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 08:11 PM   #8
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
I think youre misunderstanding me here; I'm talking about in the meantime while it's still a pistol and you're waiting for your Form 1 to come in.

Having a carbine or rifle buffer tube on it while it has a barrel shorter than 16" will make it an SBR. It doesnt matter if you have a stock on it yet; simply having a tube that can accept a stock counts as a stock.

If you use that A1 buffer tube with your 9" Blackout upper it will be illegal. But you could use that A1 buffer tube as long as you have a 16" upper on it.

Of course, all this will be legal once your Form 1 comes back.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."

Last edited by Theohazard; December 24, 2013 at 08:35 PM.
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 08:18 PM   #9
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
Id sure love to know where you got that info. As i said there is a court case that states the ability to turn your pistol into a rife is perfectly legal. As long as the short bbl is not on at the same time as the stock

I beleive there is a letter from BATF clarifing that ANY buffer tube is legal on a pistol. You just cant have the stock on the tube

This is legal fact. These forums are riff with personal conjecture and conclusions not based in fact.

The case is Thompson/Center vs. US

SHORT version is avail with a quick search

Not trying to argue with you but the facts are other then you are stating
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 08:39 PM   #10
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
Id sure love to know where you got that info. As i said there is a court case that states the ability to turn your pistol into a rife is perfectly legal. As long as the short bbl is not on at the same time as the stock
My info is 100% correct. I'm not talking about turning a rifle into a pistol or vice- versa. I'm talking about putting a stock or a buffer tube that can accept a stock on a pistol with a barrel shorter than 16" before your Form 1 comes back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
Not trying to argue with you but the facts are other then you are stating
No, my facts are correct. You're just not understanding what I'm trying to say.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 08:42 PM   #11
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
I beleive there is a letter from BATF clarifing that ANY buffer tube is legal on a pistol. You just cant have the stock on the tube
Show me this letter. If this is the case then I'd like to see it because it would have to be pretty recent. And if this is the case why would anyone need a pistol buffer tube?
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 08:48 PM   #12
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
Brother...

I absolutly understand what you are saying.

Here is a link to the BATF letter stating ANY buffer tube is ok on a pistol. And the fact that the buffer tube is capable of accecpting a stock does not make it a stock in and of it self

http://www.kwikrnu.com/BATFE%2520opi...52010-3-11.pdf

I added a pic of the pertinent part of the letter as well. Its dated sometime in 2011 if i recall.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (236.2 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by Sharkbite; December 24, 2013 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Info addition
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 08:58 PM   #13
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
OK, you didn't know what I was saying because you kept referring to the Thompson case regarding turning a rife into a pistol. I wasn't talking about that at all. I was saying that the BATFE regards a buffer tube that can accept a stock as a stock.

I haven't read your link yet, but I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong on that. But your initial objections had absolutly nothing to do with what I was talking about; it wasn't until you mentioned the letter that you actually addressed what I was saying.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 08:59 PM   #14
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,077
Sharkbite, your link to the ATF letter is dead. Do you have another source? I don't recall seeing anything like this in their newsletters over the last few years.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 09:04 PM   #15
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
OK. Your link didn't work, but your photo did. If that photo is correct then I'll admit I was wrong on that, though it still looks like it's a bad idea to use a carbine or buffer rifle tube if you even possess the stock at all, because it says if you do you could be nabbed for possession of an SBR. So it may not be 100% illegal like I said, but it could easily be illegal if you simply own a stock for it.

I wish you had shown me that BATFE letter sooner instead of going off on a tangent about stuff I wasn't talking about. But I still thank you for the correction. From now on I'll simply say it could be considered constructive possession to use a carbine buffer tube on a pistol.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 09:13 PM   #16
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
If you scroll thru AR15.coms pistol section there is a sticky of ATF letters. Pg 2 has the link to the buffer tube letter.

The T/C case is relavent due to the carbine buffer tube being needed to go back and forth. Whatever... The letter should clear it up


No harm in a lively discussion. Merry Christmas eve all
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 09:24 PM   #17
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
The T/C case is relavent due to the carbine buffer tube being needed to go back and forth. Whatever... The letter should clear it up
I already knew about the T/C case; trust me, I wasn't referring to that. But I was referring to what that letter was talking about; thanks for clearing that up. I'll admit that I was wrong that the BATFE says a buffer tube that can accept a stock is the same as a stock. But it still looks like it's a bad idea to use one on a pistol; how many people own a carbine or rifle buffer tube but don't own a stock that goes with it? And if you simply own that stock the BATFE said they can still nab you for possession of an SBR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
No harm in a lively discussion. Merry Christmas eve all
Yep, no harm at all! Merry Christmas, my friend!
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 11:04 PM   #18
Coach Z
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2011
Location: CT / RI
Posts: 683
Beyond the bickering I can tell you definitively that the sig brace WILL NOT WORK on a standard stock buffer A1 A2 or carbine. It will only accept a round tube :

From the sig website....

Features
• Fits all pistols equipped with an AR-style buffer tube 1.0" - 1.2" in diameter.
Coach Z is offline  
Old December 24, 2013, 11:32 PM   #19
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
Does anybody know the diff between an A1 tube and the above mentioned sig brace tube?

I know the A1 is longer, but that seems it would only effect LOP. Is there a diameter diff that would make it not fit?

I may have lept before i looked enough
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 25, 2013, 03:20 AM   #20
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Z
I can tell you definitively that the sig brace WILL NOT WORK on a standard stock buffer A1 A2 or carbine. It will only accept a round tube
It fits great on a standard carbine buffer tube if you machine off the notches for the stock. And you can even leave on a small section at the front so the arm brace can index at the front of it and not slide too close to the upper receiver. And since the notches are gone it can no longer accept a normal stock so there shouldn't be any fear of getting busted for possession of SBR parts.

It wil also fit on a regular rifle buffer tube but you need to add something to it (tape or something) to make the diameter a little larger so it fits tighter. And of course you'd have to modify a rifle buffer tube also if you wanted to avoid the possession issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
Does anybody know the diff between an A1 tube and the above mentioned sig brace tube?
Besides being longer, it's also thinner so you need tape or something to make it fit tighter. It also can accept a stock, whereas the pistol buffer tube can't.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 27, 2013, 04:19 PM   #21
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
Sharkbite, if it makes you feel better I follow the TC case link to the issue at hand.

In direct reply to the object at hand. FINALLY, a pistol I can attach a bayonet to without looking like an idiot Wasn't this in one of the Final Fantasy games? If there were a legal way to do it I might cut down a nagant, add the brace to it along with whatever the longest bayonet available is.

The only thing I can imagine using this for is hunting from a stand in order to game laws. For every other purpose I prefer my wrist functioning.

I wonder what sort of medical damage I could expect if I tried to rig something similar on my 460 Encore pistol.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; December 27, 2013 at 04:29 PM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old December 29, 2013, 12:41 PM   #22
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
Not sure i understand the context of your post.

Care to clarify?
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 29, 2013, 03:38 PM   #23
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062
The only thing I can imagine using this for is hunting from a stand in order to game laws. For every other purpose I prefer my wrist functioning.

I wonder what sort of medical damage I could expect if I tried to rig something similar on my 460 Encore pistol.
Nobody actually uses it as an arm brace (other than just trying it out for novelty purposes). The SIG SB-15 is terrible as an arm brace; the gun is almost completely unusable that way. But it works great if you shoulder it, it works just as well as a normal stock except that it's not easy to adjust. And shooting it this way is completely legal; the BATFE doesn't regulate how you shoot it.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old December 29, 2013, 03:51 PM   #24
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 570
Im going to install one of the clamp on the tube sling adaptors to prevent the slip on brace from sliding farther forward then i want.

Set the LOP once and be done
Sharkbite is offline  
Old December 29, 2013, 04:13 PM   #25
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
That's a pretty good idea. Yeah, a lot of people complain that the SB15 is too short to use as a stock, but that's only if you slide it all the way up to the receiver.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13976 seconds with 8 queries