The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Curios and Relics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 11, 2013, 05:42 PM   #1
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
C&R question

On another forum, a question was raised regarding a C&R holder and buying and selling guns on a regular basis. I was under the impression that was a no-no, but no one seems able to provide any official info. What, exactly, IS the rule regarding a C&R buying and selling?

TIA
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old December 11, 2013, 05:57 PM   #2
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,501
An 03 Collector FFL- otherwise known as a C&R licensee, or C&R holder- may not be "engaged in the business" of selling firearms, whether or not those firearms are C&R eligible.

"Engaged in the business" has a formal meaning under federal law, but it is somewhat murky, and is dependent on intent. It is discussed at length in the following thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535770

However, most authorities on the topic seem to agree that an 03 FFL's activities can only become problematic with regards to selling firearms; IOW a C&R licensee may buy to his/her heart's content.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

Last edited by carguychris; December 11, 2013 at 05:59 PM. Reason: minor reword...
carguychris is offline  
Old December 11, 2013, 06:19 PM   #3
CTS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: NE Georgia
Posts: 1,070
Pretty much cut and dried. If you are buying guns with the intent of selling for a profit you are in the business an require an 01 Dealer in firearms other than destructive devices license. An 03 license does not give the holder the right to deal in curio and relics for the purposes of profit.
__________________
01 FFL, NRA, NAGR, GOA.
CTS is offline  
Old December 11, 2013, 06:28 PM   #4
madmo44mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Ft.Worth, Texas
Posts: 1,043
Here is a twist that a good friend had happen many years ago that left the ATF scratching their heads.
He bought several cases of milsurp rifles and cherry picked them and sold the rest for what he paid for them plus his cost of shipping.
After almost a year it was decided that although he purchased in bulk he was not profiting and the ATF backed off.
__________________
Texas - Not just a state but an attitude!
For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW
madmo44mag is offline  
Old December 11, 2013, 07:02 PM   #5
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
^^^thanks, that was one of the arguments
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old December 11, 2013, 11:13 PM   #6
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,456
Interesting, Madmo, but "decided by" whom? BATFE itself? A U.S. Attorney? a Federal court? In any case, only a court decision would provide precedent, and even then another person doing the same thing in another district could be tried and convicted of dealing without a license.

A lot depends on things over which the licensee has no control. If he sells guns on an 03 FFL and one of those guns falls into the famous "wrong hands" and is used in a serious crime, not only will the "collector" go to prison, but the whole C&R program could be terminated, either by Congress or by an executive order to tighten 03 license requirements so that effectively none would be issued.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old December 12, 2013, 06:10 AM   #7
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,573
Just read through that thread...

It is helpful even if it doesn't pin down specifics.

I got my C&R some months ago with the idea of easing purchases of older pistols online. (Read any of my comments and you know I am in love with the cheap junk Saturday night specials. I appear to be somewhat unique in that affection.)

It has already worked very well for about half a dozen pistols.

But now I am thinking that some of the revolvers are not worth keeping. I figured as long as I sell them for less than I paid for them, I'd be okay with BATF. But that is not the case. Plenty of people who are "in business" make transactions which don't result in a profit.

I am going to be careful how I sell anything, Whether it is under my C&R or not.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old December 12, 2013, 02:31 PM   #8
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,754
There is no rule that says you can't sell a C&R gun from your collection for a profit. You just can't be in the business of selling guns for a profit. I bought many C&R guns and rifles back when they were super cheap, and I sell some off sometimes to improve my collection. Be damned if I'd sell them for what I payed!

Quote:
If he sells guns on an 03 FFL and one of those guns falls into the famous "wrong hands" and is used in a serious crime, not only will the "collector" go to prison, but the whole C&R program could be terminated, either by Congress or by an executive order to tighten 03 license requirements so that effectively none would be issued.
I think that's a bit over the top, and a mite paranoid... He would lose his license and go to jail not because he sold a gun that was later used in a crime, but for abusing his license and using it for business purposes (if that can be proven). I don't use my 03FFL for business, and as long as I sell off a gun lawfully I have nothing to fear. That said, I am a bit more careful when I sell a gun than I have to be.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old December 12, 2013, 04:17 PM   #9
CTS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: NE Georgia
Posts: 1,070
Right. You can sell a gun or even several guns from you private collection and make a profit on them. If you did two or three a month you might have a problem. If you bought for your own collection and decide to sell later for what ever reason you are fine. If you really want to get the correct info go here:
ATF.gov and click on the FAQ section.
http://www.atf.gov/content/Firearms/..._industry_tabs
__________________
01 FFL, NRA, NAGR, GOA.
CTS is offline  
Old December 13, 2013, 10:54 AM   #10
jag2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2009
Location: dallas
Posts: 384
Two points to ponder.
Most of the C&R guns I buy are from other collectors. We have common interests and from time to time change out our collections. Price has nothing to do with it. That's what the law is intended to do. The other point is that there is no record of a C&R transaction sent anywhere. The paper work is exchanged between the two parties. You would have to really abuse the privilege the C&R gives you to come to the ATFs attention. Even when you give up your license you just keep the records, they are never sent in to anyone.
jag2 is offline  
Old December 13, 2013, 12:08 PM   #11
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,754
Jag, mostly correct. However, when you give up your license you don't have to keep any records. You can destroy them if you want. In fact, I would recommend destroying them.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old December 13, 2013, 12:48 PM   #12
madmo44mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Ft.Worth, Texas
Posts: 1,043
James K - The BTAF made the call.
What brought attention was the number of guns he was buying in a short time with his 03 FFL.
The BTAF investigated him ( a little over a year) and he could document every transaction.
Their ruling was he had not violated any rule or law.
He was NOT making a profit nor running a business for profit only adding to his collection.
Most collectors don't have the means or resources to buy in bulk
This was back in the late 70's and early 80's.
__________________
Texas - Not just a state but an attitude!
For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW
madmo44mag is offline  
Old December 17, 2013, 11:13 AM   #13
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,324
Quote:
This was back in the late 70's and early 80's.
Does any finding from thirty years ago hold up today? I wouldn't take the chance just to get a free gun or two.
1. If someone has the resources to buy casses of guns to "cherry pick", they could certainly afford to just buy a good one outright.
2. However, on the other hand, they probably have the resources to pay a lawyer to defend them if the BATF wants to make a case out of him dealing in firearms.
The whole question is one of personal choice. If you want to take the chance on a BATF investigation just to get a couple free guns, then go for It. I tend to be much more cautious, but I have sold a couple guns from my C&R collection to "improve my collection" as It states in the BATF rules when I found others in better condition.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old December 18, 2013, 02:07 PM   #14
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,524
Quote:
madmo44mag James K - The BTAF made the call.
What brought attention was the number of guns he was buying in a short time with his 03 FFL.
The BTAF investigated him ( a little over a year) and he could document every transaction.
Their ruling was he had not violated any rule or law.
He was NOT making a profit nor running a business for profit only adding to his collection.
Most collectors don't have the means or resources to buy in bulk
This was back in the late 70's and early 80's.
1. There is no requirement to make a profit to be engaged in the business. Buying guns that you have no intention of keeping is engaging in the business.....its called repetitive buying and selling. ATF will not care if you made or lost $$$ on the buying/selling.....only if you are buying guns not for your personal collection.
2. A "ATF ruling" is wholly and completely different than ATF choosing to not pursue criminal charges.
3. Did your friend continue to make quantity purchases and cherry pick?
4. ATF is decidedly more proactive in pursuing unlicensed dealers now than they were in the '70's.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old December 18, 2013, 04:01 PM   #15
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,754
Quote:
1. There is no requirement to make a profit to be engaged in the business. Buying guns that you have no intention of keeping is engaging in the business.....its called repetitive buying and selling. ATF will not care if you made or lost $$$ on the buying/selling.....only if you are buying guns not for your personal collection.
Apparently the ATF does care if you made some sort of profit. And it would hardly be likely that the ATF would be able to prove, or get admission from someone, that they didn't intend to keep the guns for themselves or their collection.

Relevant 18 USC 921 Definition:

(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old December 18, 2013, 04:12 PM   #16
madmo44mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Ft.Worth, Texas
Posts: 1,043
My buddy for several years did make bulk purchases but not like your may think.
He would buy a case or two in a years time and over said time or longer sale off those that did not meet his collection standards.


noelf2 nailed it I think
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

It was clearly a hobby and not a full time gig.
__________________
Texas - Not just a state but an attitude!
For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW
madmo44mag is offline  
Old December 18, 2013, 08:22 PM   #17
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,456
Paranoid? OK, let's take a "frinstance". Say I have a C&R license, and I buy a lot of milsurp and sell the ones I don't need, to the tune of hundreds a year, to anyone who comes around.

One of those guns is used like a milsurp was used 50+ years ago. Does anyone think I am going to continue to keep my 03 license and keep peddling guns to all comers? Even if the folks on my friendly web site say I wasn't violating the law?

Does anyone think the antis won't push for a end to the C&R license, something they have already targeted? Did you see any exemption for C&R in the bans on "assault rifles" that passed following Newtown?

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old December 19, 2013, 07:01 AM   #18
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,754
Quote:
Paranoid? OK, let's take a "frinstance". Say I have a C&R license, and I buy a lot of milsurp and sell the ones I don't need, to the tune of hundreds a year, to anyone who comes around.
They last part of your sentence (the anyone that comes around part) turned it into an irrational hypothetical vs. a "frinstance". If you don't break any laws, and you are really doing this to cherry pick and improve your collection, then it's on the ATF to prove you a liar. Prove me wrong! Come up with an example of your hypothetical.

Quote:
One of those guns is used like a milsurp was used 50+ years ago. Does anyone think I am going to continue to keep my 03 license and keep peddling guns to all comers? Even if the folks on my friendly web site say I wasn't violating the law?
Yes, I think you would keep your 03FFL. There was already an example posted where ATF backed down. Can you provide an example to the contrary, keeping in mind the 03FFL is using his/her license in the spirit of collecting? BTW, the "peddling guns to all comers" part adds drama and is, again, over the top. It supposes that the 03FFL holder is not considering the lawful requirements of the sale. I would change "peddling" to selling (or some sort of lawful disposition) and say "all qualified comers" versus "all comers" to keep this real and rational.

Quote:
Does anyone think the antis won't push for a end to the C&R license, something they have already targeted? Did you see any exemption for C&R in the bans on "assault rifles" that passed following Newtown?
I think the antis will push for the end of all licenses. Doubt most even know the difference between an 03 and an 01 FFL. Antis go after 01FFLs when they legally sell a gun and it ends up used in a crime. Can you give us an example of a legally sold gun being used in a crime that caused any licensee to lose their license? If you don't exercise your rights and privileges for fear of losing them, then, you don't really have them. (see, that's the paranoid part)
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

Last edited by noelf2; December 19, 2013 at 09:25 AM.
noelf2 is offline  
Old December 19, 2013, 09:22 PM   #19
xring3
Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2008
Location: northwest Oklahoma
Posts: 21
What I do when disposing of C&R guns purchased with my 03 license is to put them on consignment with an 01 dealer. That puts some distance between me and the new buyer. They have to do a 4473 keeping the ATF happy, 01 dealer makes a buck keeping him happy, I MAY make a buck keeping me happy. Of course I do not dispose of cases at a time.
xring3 is offline  
Old December 20, 2013, 12:39 AM   #20
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,456
OK, Noelf2, you have more faith than I have, and that may be good. Keep pretending that an 03 FFL can sell tons of guns on a regular and recurring basis and not have any problems if his "business" comes to the attention of BATFE.

And when does violating the law come under the heading of exercising my rights and privileges?

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old December 20, 2013, 06:55 AM   #21
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,754
Quote:
Keep pretending that an 03 FFL can sell tons of guns on a regular and recurring basis and not have any problems
I will, thanks. You keep on pretending that the ATF is out to get'cha even if you stay within the letter of the law.

Quote:
And when does violating the law come under the heading of exercising my rights and privileges?
Violating what law?
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

Last edited by noelf2; December 20, 2013 at 07:09 AM.
noelf2 is offline  
Old December 22, 2013, 07:06 PM   #22
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,524
Quote:
noelf2
Quote:
Quote:
1. There is no requirement to make a profit to be engaged in the business. Buying guns that you have no intention of keeping is engaging in the business.....its called repetitive buying and selling. ATF will not care if you made or lost $$$ on the buying/selling.....only if you are buying guns not for your personal collection.
Apparently the ATF does care if you made some sort of profit. And it would hardly be likely that the ATF would be able to prove, or get admission from someone, that they didn't intend to keep the guns for themselves or their collection.
Your cut and paste proves my point..........there is no requirement to make a profit to be engaged in the business. ATF doesn't give a rats hiney if a dealer actually makes a profit. They are concerned with the repetitive purchase and sale of firearms with the INTENT to make a profit.....as stated in your cut and paste.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old December 22, 2013, 08:39 PM   #23
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,754
So, if your "intent" is to improve your collection, and your strategy is to cherry pick from bulk purchases and then legally dispose of those firearms that don't meet your criteria, you are not breaking the law. The ATF may wonder what the heck you are up to, but they will not be able to prove your intent other than what you say it is. If that is what your original point was, then I misunderstood you.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12395 seconds with 7 queries