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Old December 10, 2013, 09:00 PM   #1
VegaSSG32
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Accidental Discharge with injury

Today when i arrived at work, i was talking to some of the guys before we got cranked up for the day. I noticed one of the younger guys on the crew wasn't at work. His father told me (he works on the crew as well) that his son had an accident last night and that he shot himself. Immediately going threw my mind was that he had committed suicide. Then he tells me his son was cleaning his pistol and Accidentally shot himself. A little back ground on the kid, his 23-24 still lives with his parents, not really slow but not the brightest kid either. Been babied by his parents his whole life and when i found out today he owned a gun i was amazed that his parents would even allow this kid to own or handle a firearm. So to get back on track this is the gist of it.

He ordered some new magazines for his Glock 9mm. (what exact model i'm not sure) but he took the loaded magazine out of the pistol and i'm guessing set it down beside him next to the new unloaded magazines. He then took turns taking the new (empty) mags putting them into the pistol and pulling the slide back, (i'm guessing to do some sort of functions check making sure they fit and operated properly???) In this process he grabbed the loaded mag on accident and did the same thing.

Now i know some of you are going to immediately say you don't know the difference between a loaded and unloaded mag? Or even visually being able to see rounds in the magazine or notice a weight difference... Or how bout the fact that when you are operating a automatic with an empty mag the slide locks back, and when he put the loaded mag in and pulled back the slide he should have automatically notice the slide did not lock, ran a full cycle and chambered a round??? The lack of knowledge about firearms is why he doesn't realize the weapon is now loaded... (like i said earlier he isn't the brightest. But i only know him from work and hes not on my crew,I don't know him on a personal level.)

After he put the loaded mag in, and ran a cycle,(pulling the slide back and releasing) he drops the mag, but does not check the chamber because he is under the assumption that the pistol is still clear and no round in the chamber because he was playing with empty magazines. Now he wants to clean the pistol, ( Keep in mind that this is a GLOCK and this is where he gets in trouble) I'm not a Glock guy, but Ive been told that a step in disassembling a Glock is that you have to pull the trigger to take the slide off. He is sitting Indian style on the floor in his bedroom, has the barrel of the pistol against his upper thigh, and while he attempts to take the slide off by pulling the trigger, in turn he discharges a round into his upper thigh, it went through and exits his lower thigh and becomes lodged in his calf. After a night in the hospital his was released. The bullet actually missed all artery's and bone ( luckily ). He will undergo some surgery to replace torn tendons and ligaments but it could have been much much worse.

This story has disaster written all over it from the beginning. From the lack of gun knowledge to knowing the status of your firearm to the basic rule of never under any circumstance point a weapon at you or anyone else.

In turn i would like to here comments from Glock Owners about dis assembly and if this could happen to anyone or if this is a clear case of lack of knowing your weapon, weapon status, and failure to follow common gun practices.
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Old December 10, 2013, 09:46 PM   #2
Rattlehead
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I stuck with being borderline-OCD-anal about knowing whats in the chamber any time I pick it up, doubly so if I'm going to be pulling the trigger anywhere other than a range.

(Muzzle awareness also helps, but it helps to not a firing pin into a live round at all)
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Old December 10, 2013, 09:50 PM   #3
subhuman
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the trigger on a glock must be pulled to take it apart, if you are going to take it apart you make damn sure to pull that slide back and look in the chamber before you pull that trigger every singal time even if you "know" it's empty
he was careless and he got lucky he didnt do major damage to himself
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Old December 10, 2013, 09:53 PM   #4
Ben Towe
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Even if he had a momentary lapse and failed to check the chamber, why on earth would anyone point it at their leg and pull the trigger? Point it at the floor, or the wall, or something.
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Old December 10, 2013, 09:54 PM   #5
Doyle
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Even before I opened this, I would have been willing to take bets that this involved a Glock.
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Old December 10, 2013, 10:01 PM   #6
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That's why the safety rules are redundant -- if you violate one, you should still avoid injury. Here, he violated a couple.
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Old December 10, 2013, 10:04 PM   #7
wayneinFL
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Quote:
In turn i would like to here comments from Glock Owners about dis assembly and if this could happen to anyone or if this is a clear case of lack of knowing your weapon, weapon status, and failure to follow common gun practices.
Could this happen to anyone? This could happen to anyone who points a gun at his leg and pulls the trigger.

Some people seem to misread Glock's instruction to "POINT THE PISTOL IN A SAFE DIRECTION (one in which no one can be injured in the event of an unintentional discharge) and pull the trigger" as "point at yourself or other people and pull the trigger".

This is of course after a block print, bold face warning to ensure the pistol is unloaded per the procedure, which ended with visually and physically checking to ensure pistol is empty.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Old December 10, 2013, 10:05 PM   #8
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^^And having it aimed at a body part and not in a safe direction is also inexcusable.
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Old December 10, 2013, 10:21 PM   #9
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Yes, i have to pull the trigger, but I've never considered it a safety issue. Like any other firearm, I clear it before doing anything with it. People shoot themselves with unloaded shotguns. The brand has nothing to do with it.
Always clear every weapon before messing with it!
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Old December 10, 2013, 10:25 PM   #10
RichC
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I would disagree that it was an accidental discharge, and would put this firmly in the negligent discharge category.

He was clearly negligent by failure to follow simple, well defined safety rules.

In my book an accidental discharge is something that rarely ever happens, and can only be claimed if all safety rules were followed properly.

YMMV
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Old December 10, 2013, 10:28 PM   #11
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Yes, you have to pull the trigger to disassemble a Glock. Therefore, it's incumbent upon the owner to check the chamber, preferably several times. This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the platform for folks who aren't willing to put in time for training.

Second, I detest the practice of dropping the slide on an empty magazine. If I'm clearing a weapon, the magazine is out. The slide is locked back, the chamber is checked, the action is closed, and then the magazine is inserted. Someone who makes a habit of closing the slide on an "empty" magazine is going to have a mishap at some point.

If the round went through the guy's thigh, he needs to buy a lottery ticket. Had he cut the femoral artery, it's doubtful he would have lived to make it to the hospital.
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Old December 10, 2013, 10:35 PM   #12
jnichols2
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I guess I can stop feeling anal.

I will double/triple check a gun I unloaded myself.

When I unload my nightstand pistol, I leave the magazine on the nightstand. Then I take the verified empty pistol into my office room (no ammunition there) for cleaning -- after I check it again.

After field stripping, I point the barrel at the floor and shine a flashlight through to see if light shines on the floor, then a cleaning rod, before I handle it.

I don't own a gun without a mechanical thumb safety. Yes, my brain is my safety, but the thumb safety is the backup.

Fly the plane safely, but pack your own chute.

I really don't want to get shot. I really, really, really don't want to do it myself.

Last edited by jnichols2; December 10, 2013 at 10:41 PM.
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Old December 10, 2013, 11:00 PM   #13
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I check the chamber visually 3 times before I clean/do anything with the firearm that requires pulling the trigger outside of the range. Exactly 3 times, every time. If its too dark to see in the chamber I will find light. Before I pull the trigger I always rethink through my check; I never "just pull it". At a gun store I always double check the chamber even if the employee shows me the empty chamber.
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Old December 10, 2013, 11:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
In turn i would like to here comments from Glock Owners about dis assembly and if this could happen to anyone or if this is a clear case of lack of knowing your weapon, weapon status, and failure to follow common gun practices.
There's nothing magical about Glocks that makes them more likely to fire accidentally during disassembly than any of the other various firearms that also require pulling the trigger as part of the disassembly process.

For what it's worth, here's the procedure for disassembling a Glock, directly from the manual.
...
--remove the magazine
--check for a round in the chamber
--pull trigger back (pointing in a safe direction)
--remove slide from receiver
...
It's not really that complicated, but, as with any firearm, if you don't know how to unload it and/or don't unload it before you start taking it apart, there is certainly potential for mayhem.
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Old December 11, 2013, 12:07 AM   #15
Theohazard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VegaSSG32
In turn i would like to here comments from Glock Owners about dis assembly and if this could happen to anyone or if this is a clear case of lack of knowing your weapon, weapon status, and failure to follow common gun practices.
This is a clear case of someone not knowing or choosing to ignore every rule in the book regarding firearm handling. If anyone thinks this could happen to them, then they definitely shouldn't be handling a firearm until they receive some training.

I know this isn't directly related to this case, but I wish more people would follow the following steps when unloading a firearm, especially before pulling the trigger for takedown:

1) Remove the magazine.

2) Rack the slide to the rear three times. Don't try to capture or catch the round in the chamber, just let it go; you can pick it up when you're done (and if more than one round comes out, you obviously missed Step One).

3) Lock the slide to the rear.

4) Visually and physically inspect the chamber to ensure it's empty.

If everyone unloaded a firearm this way, there would be a LOT fewer negligent discharges.
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Old December 11, 2013, 10:43 AM   #16
MRYANJ99
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Sounds more like a negligent discharge than an "accidental" discharge. Glocks are the easiest semi-autos to break down and clean, and it sounds like the kid didn't feel like reading the instructions. The Glock manual has in big, red, bold letters to verify that the gun is unloaded. I'm glad he's ok, but hopefully he learns his lesson and follows the 4 rules of gun safety.
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Old December 11, 2013, 11:08 AM   #17
eldermike
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Never put your finger on the trigger and then point a gun at your leg or anyone's leg or other body parts, you can add rules as needed from this starting point.

This would apply no matter the brand of firearm.
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Old December 11, 2013, 11:29 AM   #18
MTT TL
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Let's see.... first page of text for Glock Manual:

Quote:
Always assume that the GLOCK pistol or any other firearm is loaded is capable of being discharged until you the user, have been personally convinced to the contrary. Until the magazine is removed and you have inspected the chamber and complete the unloading procedures as presented on page21, the firearm must be considered to be loaded and capable of being fired.
pg 21:

Quote:
The GLOCK pistols are stripped into the main component parts
in the following order:
– removing the magazine
– checking safety (ensuring there is no round in the barrel)
– pulling trigger right back
– removing barrel from slide. Before the slide and the receiver are dismantled any further,attention is drawn to the safety and guarantee conditions
Ooopps, someone missed step 2 and now has a hole in their leg. I am thinking they won't forget this next time no matter how dim they are. That is a cheap lesson compared to being dead.
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Old December 11, 2013, 04:27 PM   #19
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
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Accidental v. Negligent

I can only think of one example of an 'accidental' discharge. I was watching 'Tales of the Gun. Japanese Guns of WWII' There was one poorly designed pistol (amongst a half dozen other poorly designed firearms) that would fire if you simply squeeze the slide (or sit on it).

Other than that, if a trigger is pulled, it's 'negligent' in my book. I hope I did not just jinx myself.
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Old December 11, 2013, 04:37 PM   #20
Brian Pfleuger
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Let's get off the accident versus negligence thing, guys.

You can start a thread on that if you really feel the need. Accidents can be negligent. Negligence can lead to accidents. The words are not mutually exclusive and it's certainly not the topic for this thread.
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Old December 11, 2013, 05:54 PM   #21
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Violated about 3 critical rules here... not checking the chamber, being careless and not respecting the tool, and pointing it at his leg.
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Old December 11, 2013, 05:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
2) Rack the slide to the rear three times. Don't try to capture or catch the round in the chamber, just let it go; you can pick it up when you're done (and if more than one round comes out, you obviously missed Step One).
Why not? It's very easy to place your hand over the slide opening, tilt gun to side, rack the slide and catch. I do it quite often and have never had a problem. What am I missing?
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Old December 11, 2013, 06:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southjk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
Rack the slide to the rear three times. Don't try to capture or catch the round in the chamber, just let it go; you can pick it up when you're done (and if more than one round comes out, you obviously missed Step One).
Why not? It's very easy to place your hand over the slide opening, tilt gun to side, rack the slide and catch. I do it quite often and have never had a problem. What am I missing?
Many instructors - especially law enforcement instructors - teach this for a few reasons, one being that there are cases of the round getting stuck in the ejection port and being fired by the ejector when the gun is cleared this way. But the main reason is that turning the gun and cupping the round in your palm is a more complicated procedure where the gun is more likely to be pointed in an unsafe direction during the process.

The method of clearing a handgun I described has been found to be more foolproof than other methods. Not to say you can't be safe doing it another way, but the way I described is better for most people.
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Old December 11, 2013, 07:11 PM   #24
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There are four rules of gunhandling, and you can generally screw-up any three with no harm done, but simultaneously ignore all four and your whole day will be ruined.
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Old December 11, 2013, 07:52 PM   #25
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Why do people seem to think that it's a dangerous requirement to pull the trigger to dis-assemble a Glock, but seem to have no qualms about having to do the exact same thing for the past 64 years to dis-assemble one of the most popular pistols ever made, the Ruger Standard Mk I, Mk II, or Mk III?
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