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Old December 17, 2013, 07:21 AM   #76
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
Probably not many, but here's one. This happened close to where I live.
LOL, Joe, I posted this video already in post 52 and I just used him as an example of a quick draw, but he apparently does has training as per his background, which is great.

Now let's look at the number of convenience stores in the US. How many are there? As of Dec 2012, nearly 150,000.
http://www.nacsonline.com/AskNACS/Pa...ed-States.aspx

And there are an average of about 9 employees per store.
http://www.csdecisions.com/2012/04/1...l-workforce-2/

So you are looking at 1.35 million convenience store employees. Somewhere in there you are going to have some that are trained, no doubt, but how many are trained and actually armed? So you have a figure that goes from small to tiny.

Oh, and of course, the guy you and I both cited isn't in a convenience store, but a liquor store. There are about 43,000 liquor stores in the US employing about 173,000 people.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/liquor-store-statistics/
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Old December 17, 2013, 08:04 AM   #77
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A gun or fast draw is not always needed. Just a fast let hook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehZ7fYDVtiY

Doug
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Old December 17, 2013, 11:55 AM   #78
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A recent article by Greg Ellifritz has bearing on this conversation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by From the article
... Up until the early 1990′s. most trainers taught their students to stand still, draw their weapons and shoot as quickly as possible when a criminal was attempting to draw a gun at close range. Some advocated special positions (the “speed rock” is one example), but the general idea was that the student should just work to be faster on the draw than his opponent. It was almost like a Hollywood western movie where two guys square off and start blasting. This technique didn’t work very well. - See more at: http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne....BmqpxYFz.dpuf ...
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Old December 17, 2013, 02:35 PM   #79
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No data presented on how students of the technique actually did in real life. Also, they were not drawing on drawn guns but against the bad guy's draw. No analysis pertaining to the issue of standing still which is considered to NOT be a good idea unless one has proper cover. It was not just the draw 5hat was problematic.
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Old December 17, 2013, 07:25 PM   #80
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Wife and I had a situation some years back when our area was like a war zone. It could have been a telling story on the OP's question.
Two dudes were poking around at my shop, so I had my gun out and at my side when I asked what they were doing. "None of your business!" was the reply.
I said they were trespassing and had nodded to my wife to finish calling PD. She was at their 9 o'clock. I was about 15' from them and said I was making it my business. One said we're PD and made a fast move under his jacket.
I said freeze, I have you covered and brought my pistol around, but not pointing yet. They looked at me, then each other and I thought they were both going to draw then and there. (If they had, we'd have a definitive answer for OP,btw.)
I said uh-uh, she's got you covered! They looked and she waggled her pistol.
One said we really are PD. I told them to slowly open their jackets and when I saw the pistols and badges, I still asked for ID.
They showed ID and we holstered and said we were sorry, but covering our bases.
We BS'd a bit and said we had handled it correctly and there were no hard feelings. They were investigating the latest abduction and rape that had occurred at the shop overnight. Blocking my one-way street to preserve a crime scene and calling PD was a morning routine for me.

Not trying to hijack, but this reminded me of the incident and I believe they were going for it too.
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Old December 18, 2013, 05:42 PM   #81
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The OP's scenario brings to mind an old hypothetical situation: you're in a store somewhere, say getting something off a bottom shelf, and you look over and a robber is holding a gun on the clerk. Do you take him out, or continue hiding behind the display?

One argument is forget it - your life is not in danger as long as you keep hiding; a few dollars out of cash register isn't worth taking a human life, etc. etc.

The other argument is to take him out - Death Row of full of people, like the one in the OP, who robbed convenience stores, then shot the clerk.
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Old December 18, 2013, 09:19 PM   #82
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Quote:
.9 seconds is just unrealistic for any but the super competitors.
I have to disagree.

One of the stages in our qualification course goes like this:

From the 5 yard line, draw and fire 3 rounds.

This is from a duty holster, fully secured.

You start in the interview position--like you're holding a pen and small notebook. You do NOT start your draw until the target moves.

Time allowed, until the target edges toward you again? 3 seconds.

That gives me 3 seconds to identify that the target is starting to turn, draw, aim and fire three rounds. I usually manage to get my first shot on target before the target completes its turn.
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Old December 18, 2013, 10:28 PM   #83
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The major difference between a gun game and the real world is that, regardless of holding your hands away from your holster, when you're playing a gun game you know the targets about to turn. You don't have to worry about identifying anything other than the target starting to move.
A real defensive situation is apt to come as a little bit more of a surprise.
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Old December 18, 2013, 11:03 PM   #84
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Training; guns....

With the proper mindset & training, you can be prepared for some lethal force incidents.

About 5/6 years ago, in my metro area, a local gun shop manager fended off three armed robbers in a "take-down" robbery event.
The armed manager reacted quickly & shot all three felons.
One fled the crime scene but was later arrested. The other two robbers were seriously wounded & charged at the scene.
If I recall the manager was not shot but he was slightly injured in the attack(by flying glass or broken wood).
The gun shop manager used good tactics & marksmanship.

These events can happen & even armed citizens can prevail against multiple felons.

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Old December 18, 2013, 11:17 PM   #85
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Quote:
The OP's scenario brings to mind an old hypothetical situation: you're in a store somewhere, say getting something off a bottom shelf, and you look over and a robber is holding a gun on the clerk. Do you take him out, or continue hiding behind the display?
A similar situation occured when I worked in a gun shop

I was hanging some things on a display near to, but not visible from, the front door when I heard it open and a voice said "This is a hold up"

I drew my Glock and stood up 10 feet BEHIND him as he continued down the aisle, carrrying a rifle.

The ONLY thing that saved his life was the man I worked for was laughing, because he knew it was supposed to be a joke.

We didn't even tell him until a few years later how close he came to getting shot for his "sense of humor"
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Old December 19, 2013, 08:07 AM   #86
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Quote:
.9 seconds is just unrealistic for any but the super competitors.
There is a young guy (65) shooting steal can draw and hit 5 targets in 3.8 seconds almost any arrangement.

And he is using a S&W model 66 revolver.

Doug.
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Old December 19, 2013, 10:01 AM   #87
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Quote:
There is a young guy (65) shooting steal can draw and hit 5 targets in 3.8 seconds almost any arrangement.

And he is using a S&W model 66 revolver.

Doug.
Okay, so what? Does he have a .9 second draw from concealment?
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Old December 19, 2013, 10:38 AM   #88
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I trained dogs and dog trainers for years, obedience training for AKC obedience titles. Dog training is 99% dog temperament (mental toughness). A dog that falls apart in a crisis can’t be fixed with training. People have that same internal programming and it’s just waiting for the right trigger to set it off. IOW, if you have ever made an unplanned high pitched noise at the onset of a crisis you should probably just hand over the money and pray.
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Old December 19, 2013, 11:26 AM   #89
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I've seen better than me draw from concealment and double tap three close targets in 2.5 seconds. My best is about 3.3 but usually about 3.5.

So I'm still not applying for a job at 7-11.
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Old December 19, 2013, 12:38 PM   #90
rdmallory
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Quote:
Okay, so what? Does he have a .9 second draw from concealment?
Nope, I have seen .8 but not from concealment. It was from a speed holster.

Doug
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Old December 20, 2013, 12:44 AM   #91
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Has everyone seen the video from the news last night of the guy on the train that disarmed and beat the punk who stuck a pistol in his face?.

All it took was a quick reaction without hesitation.
No fancy skills or training at all
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Old December 20, 2013, 01:07 AM   #92
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Random murder. Boggles the mind.
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Old December 20, 2013, 01:54 AM   #93
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Quote:
The major difference between a gun game and the real world is that, regardless of holding your hands away from your holster, when you're playing a gun game you know the targets about to turn. You don't have to worry about identifying anything other than the target starting to move.
A real defensive situation is apt to come as a little bit more of a surprise.
Gun game? Perhaps I was a bit vague.

The stage I described is done by me--and the other Officers in my department--as part of our qualification drill.
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Old December 20, 2013, 04:10 AM   #94
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Drop, Roll, and Return FIRE, if at all possible.
Better to take action than to be executed.
I will take judged by twelve before carried by six.
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Old December 20, 2013, 06:45 AM   #95
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Quote:
Gun game? Perhaps I was a bit vague.

The stage I described is done by me--and the other Officers in my department--as part of our qualification drill.
My point remains the same.
Whether you're "playing" with friends or "drilling" with coworkers, you're not actually defending yourself from the turning target, and you know that you're going to draw ahead of time.
Your draw speed when you're waiting and expecting to draw is going to be far faster than your "real world" draw speed.
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Old December 20, 2013, 09:41 AM   #96
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Quote:
My point remains the same.
Whether you're "playing" with friends or "drilling" with coworkers, you're not actually defending yourself from the turning target, and you know that you're going to draw ahead of time.
Your draw speed when you're waiting and expecting to draw is going to be far faster than your "real world" draw speed.
Right! The decision has already been made to shoot. You may be standing with a pen and notebook, but you are already geared up to shoot, everything adjusted correctly, and ready to go. There are no real world consequences for shooting the wrong person. You know the range is clear behind the targets.

I run a diagnostic drill that doesn't get rid of all the variables at all, but is illustrative of what I can expect to be a best case scenario for shooting. The only timed number I figure that is remotely accurate of my real world capability is a cold drill where I get out of my car, put on my eye and ear protection, and proceed to the line for the drill without adjusting any gear or garb, then run the drill at defensive speed. I am consistently slower, or less accurate, or both on this first drill than after I warm up. When we ran this drill with the shooting group, we found folks could shave as much as 1.5 seconds off their time and increase their accuracy to 100% with shooting a Mozambique at just 7 yards...AFTER they warmed up and had everything adjusted just-so, ready for the firing line.

What this drill illustrated is that for defensive shooting purposes, a given person will not be consistently as accurate or as fast as what they like to think their accuracy and times are, not unless they get into a gun fight right after they leave the gun range.
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Old December 20, 2013, 10:09 AM   #97
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Another thing to consider is the weapon itself. Most of us do not carry our competition weapon as a every day carry.
Big difference between a tuned up SIG or race gun and a pocket 9mm or .380 you dropped in your pocket or waistband on the way out the door.
One big advantage we do have in our favor most bad guys don't practice and are usually on some mind altering substance at the time.

Doug
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Old December 20, 2013, 10:32 AM   #98
Glenn E. Meyer
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1. I shoot my carry gun in competition.

2. http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...-vs-experience - Greg Ellifritz (met him once - good guy) indicating that you shouldn't underestimate criminals' experience.

3. Drop, roll and shoot - how much time does that take? Unless you are getting behind cover - seems one could have a lot of time to shoot the acrobat.
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Old December 20, 2013, 11:16 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Has everyone seen the video from the news last night of the guy on the train that disarmed and beat the punk who stuck a pistol in his face?...
Do you have a link of documentation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
...All it took was a quick reaction without hesitation.
No fancy skills or training at all
How do you know? How do you know what skills or training the good guy has?
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Old December 20, 2013, 12:38 PM   #100
Double Naught Spy
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Here is it, but it was a bus, not a train...
http://www.inquisitr.com/1067518/sea...sengers-video/

Quote:
All it took was a quick reaction without hesitation.
No fancy skills or training at all
Right, no skills or fancy training were apparent. I will go for that. That was apparent, in part, by his complete and total lack of situational awareness. He was surprised to find the gun in his face, not like the robber crept up on him with stealth or hadn't robbed two other people before him, there out in the open on the bus.

He was also 1000% lucky to not be shot. He did NOT control the gun very quickly. Either the gun did not work, was not loaded, or the robber had no intention of firing because he certainly had the opportunity to shoot the guy who fought back.

That the guy was going through and robbing people and nobody said anything was unconscionable!
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