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Old December 14, 2013, 12:13 AM   #51
dakota.potts
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While I agree that training all convenience store employees to our superninja level probably won't happen - the OP has mentioned that he wants to ascend to at least SuperSayian 3 in the gun world.

Thus, if the question is asked in that context - the comments that the OP should seek out Masters Yoda or Roshi make sense.

Once you can use the force or ki with sufficient intensity, resistance may not futile.
Very funny, Glenn I wasn't aware that there were multiple levels of Super Saiyan. Things you learn on TFl.

Being serious, things I've learned in this thread:

Training gives you more options than you thought you ever had

No amount of training will ever be "enough" training to always tackle a situation head on.

The best situation may be one where you don't use your gun even if you have it and there's an opportunity. Or it may not be.

I was just discussing with my girlfriend today that my line in the sand would be a robber with a gun because I don't know his intentions.

I may have to re-think that and see if that's still how I feel about it.
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Old December 14, 2013, 08:11 AM   #52
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I cannot find a single, verifiable report of a "cowboy quick-draw" duel occurring even once once in the old west.

I appreciate the fact that this is a cherished notion, and I am taking on the role of the guy telling everyone that "there is no Santa Claus". If someone can point me to actual evidence from reliable sources stating otherwise, I'd be happy to see it.
Your argument about the old west gun fights may have merit, but your argument that quick draw skills won't save your life is just plain naive. What happened in the old west has no bearing on what might happen at your corner convenient store today. Quick draws have saved people countless times, though it is far from the norm.

For dakota.potts, here is an example of where a gunman appears with gun in hand and a clerk, who works with another, uses her to shield his initial movement as he then quickly draws and fires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

Here is one where robbers enter and the guard quickly draws and fires...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_OuLsNR_wA

This is a classic ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy6DGppUoh8

Contrary to your original post, nobody thinks it will be a cowboy style duel. Nobody stops a robbery by calling another person out into the street to determine the success of the robbery by a duel.

However, the quick-draws that may have been made popular by old westerns certainly have a very real application in self defense against robbers.
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Old December 14, 2013, 09:42 AM   #53
Glenn E. Meyer
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Even in a classic showdown - you are not necessarily doomed by facing a drawn gun.

In an Insights class, Greg Hamilton with gun holstered had an advanced student face him with gun drawn. The student was to simulate a robbery. While the student was making his robbery speech, Greg drew and 'shot' him. Talking is a capacity load on attention and while no guarantee, you can use it to your advantage.

There's really no substitute for good FOF. Speculation is just fine but not sufficient.
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Old December 14, 2013, 12:08 PM   #54
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"I cannot find a single, verifiable report of a "cowboy quick-draw" duel occurring even once once in the old west."

Not looking hard enough. Recall during a card game two (cheating) desperados pulled their guns on Wyatt Earp, but before their guns could clear leather, Earp's gun was out. Doc Holliday (who witnessed the incident) said Earp's draw was so fast that he could not follow it with the eye. No video link tho, sadly, no CCTV back then.

As for Hickok vs Tutt, that's a long discussion: two men, two quick shots, one miss, one hit. Let's face it duelling has been around since the fields of Troy (and before).

Ahoy Double Naught, thanks for the video links, the gent in the 3rd one was very smooth.
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Old December 14, 2013, 12:20 PM   #55
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Right Glenn, but FOF training is still nothing but a form of speculation in its own right. It isn't lethal force and doesn't hold lethal force consequences and all parties know that. They are free to try anything without dying. Safety protocols are in place and often the participants are very well aware of exactly how many players are actually involved.

When it comes to examples, there most definitely is a substitute for FOF training examples. That would be reality. People often defeat robbers who have come in with guns drawn or draw their guns first.
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Old December 14, 2013, 01:03 PM   #56
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... Recall during a card game two (cheating) desperados pulled their guns on Wyatt Earp, but before their guns could clear leather, Earp's gun was out. Doc Holliday (who witnessed the incident) said Earp's draw was so fast that he could not follow it with the eye. No video link tho, sadly, no CCTV back then.
Source ... other than "old west tales"? With genuine respect, I've tried to find an actual historian who even takes the notion seriously. No luck yet. If it happened, it was rare as hen's teeth. For those with the time and inclination, I can recommend serious books and peer-reviewed papers.

And seriously, my argument is not against the utility of solid skills. In the three earlier linked videos, for instance, I did not see especially speedy presentations, but rather solid fundamentals applied well. I saw no "quick draw" maneuvers. Maybe we are missing each other over terminology.

Rather, my suggestion is that there is far more to the equation than "oooh he's dead-eye fast!". The earlier video with the hotel clerk is an apt example, not of a quick draw, but of a cool head and good tactics.

There is nothing wrong, and a lot right with gaining a fair amount of speed. It just should not be the sole metric of self-defense skill, nor will it likely be the determiner of a trip home vs. a trip to the morgue.

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Old December 14, 2013, 02:20 PM   #57
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""Source ... other than "old west tales"?""

Well I remember the citation, but you can look it up since you apparently know all.

Also some of us folks hold degrees from prestigious universities and some (including myself) have been published by a prestigious academic press. Then again, in academic circles I have been considered something of a maverick.

"There is nothing wrong, and a lot right with gaining a fair amount of speed. It just should not be the sole metric of self-defense skill, nor will it likely be the determiner of a trip home vs. a trip to the morgue. "

Well with my bad back it is more or less is the sole metric.

Hen's teeth huh... well perhaps my next book will feature Old West characters who were quick with a gun.
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Old December 14, 2013, 03:36 PM   #58
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And seriously, my argument is not against the utility of solid skills. In the three earlier linked videos, for instance, I did not see especially speedy presentations, but rather solid fundamentals applied well. I saw no "quick draw" maneuvers. Maybe we are missing each other over terminology.
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Old December 14, 2013, 05:13 PM   #59
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And seriously, my argument is not against the utility of solid skills. In the three earlier linked videos, for instance, I did not see especially speedy presentations, but rather solid fundamentals applied well. I saw no "quick draw" maneuvers. Maybe we are missing each other over terminology.
Then please, in 500 words or less, define 'quick draw' in an exclusive manner clearing stating what it means while being sure to distinguish it from a not quick drawn, but also distinguishing it from how it does or does not relate it to the application of solid fundamentals.

I have been to a lot of competitions and watched people's quickest draws. I can tell you for a fact that there is a wide range of speed when it comes to quick draws, but since you apparently have a clear cut notion of what one is and somehow apparently have correlated this with wild west gunfighting (where no timers were ever used, no video, no film), then please do explain in detail what a quick draw is.

In each video that I presented, the draw was certainly quick enough to take each and every one of the robbers by surprise and in two of them, it happened in front of them.
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Old December 14, 2013, 05:47 PM   #60
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DNS - I've been in FOF where I didn't know how many were involved and while not lethal, I've pulled a bloody t-shirt off my back from the simulated rounds.

I don't think we are arguing - I think that it is possible to resist and it helps to have some experience in the closest we can get.

That's what's done in many critical incident training venues for other emergencies also.
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Old December 14, 2013, 06:57 PM   #61
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I look at it like you will never be 100% prepared, if its your time, its your time.

The other way I look at these situation is a comment I heard in a knife fighting class, any knife fight you ever get into, expect to be cut. In that situation most people will say give the bad guy what they want and they should go away. For reasons such as your friends story, that doesn't sit too well with me all things considered. Like others have stated, there are gun grabs, and movement techniques, always a last ditch effort but it could mean the difference in life or death. I would expect if you were going to fight back in that situation that you will get hurt... but being hurt even severely is a whole lot better than being dead.

A friend of my fathers who was a LEO survived two such scenarios. The person held the firearm out at him, he did not have time to initially draw, the first time was a revolver, he managed to grab the gun and he held onto it as tight as he could and wrenched the guys wrist while they fell to the ground. Luckily with a revolver a person has more than enough strength to hold the cylinder, not letting it rotate to fire, still something I would never wanna attempt.

The other was a semi auto, he grabbed the gun, the guy actually managed to get the shot off, wounding my fathers friends hand/arm, but since he had his hands on it, the gun jammed, and he came out with his life that night.
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Old December 14, 2013, 07:16 PM   #62
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1887 Fort Worth, Texas, Luke Short and Jim Courtright dueled in a called-him-out-on-the-street duel.
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Old December 14, 2013, 08:49 PM   #63
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There was a U-tube video floating around of the same thing happening to a x-military guy working at a convenience store. He just reached out and grabbed the bad guy's gun and stuck his in his mouth.

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Old December 14, 2013, 11:24 PM   #64
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Well I remember the citation, but you can look it up since you apparently know all.

Also some of us folks hold degrees from prestigious universities and some (including myself) have been published by a prestigious academic press. Then again, in academic circles I have been considered something of a maverick.
Don't be coy. If you know better, and can provide reliable sources, I am open to instruction & correction.

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Old December 14, 2013, 11:37 PM   #65
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The basic technique I would attempt to use if I were forced to attempt a disarmament is this: sweep, step inside and grab forearm with inside arm, followed by grabbing gun with outside arm. Once I control the gun in a way that it cannot be pointed at me, elbow, meet face. Face, elbow. Repeat until he lets go of the gun.

Incidentally, an elbow to the face is devastating and has the potential to blind a person, knock out teeth, break a nose, or potentially even kill. It is NOT something you should ever do in a non-life-threatening situation. No matter where it hits, it's going to do damage.
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Old December 14, 2013, 11:38 PM   #66
zombietactics
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Then please, in 500 words or less, define 'quick draw' in an exclusive manner clearing stating what it means while being sure to distinguish it from a not quick drawn, but also distinguishing it from how it does or does not relate it to the application of solid fundamentals.
I am referring to the classic cowboy duel, as exemplified in movies like "The Quick and the Dead" and countless others. It assumes that one "wins" a fight by being some nth-of-a-second faster on the draw. A single shot is often all that is required, as it somehow, magically (unlike reality) renders the opponent unable to fire his own gun ... as he crumples lifeless to the ground as if hit by an instant death ray.

I cannot find reliable evidence that such a duel occurred even once in the old west. If it did, it is the exception rather than the rule by a long shot.

Quote:
1887 Fort Worth, Texas, Luke Short and Jim Courtright dueled in a called-him-out-on-the-street duel.
Historical source, please? I am aware of some tall tales regarding this supposed incident, which like most of these stories, vary so widely in details that nobody can say with a straight face which version is correct ... or if any of them are.

In some versions of this tale Courtright shoots first, but misses, and then Short plugs him with 3 rounds in the heart. In another version, Short empties his gun into Courtright so quickly that he never has a chance to return fire, "dying before his head met dust".

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Old December 14, 2013, 11:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by WardenWolf
The basic technique I would attempt to use if I were forced to attempt a disarmament is this: sweep, step inside and grab forearm with inside arm, followed by grabbing gun with outside arm....
And if there's a counter or another obstruction between you and the robber?
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Old December 15, 2013, 12:03 AM   #68
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As I said, that is a forced situation. And I by no means said it is an all-in-one solution. It is ONE technique, for ONE situation. It is, however, a solution that one who is not highly-proficient in martial arts has a chance of pulling off. You make the best you can do with the situation you have. Sometimes the safest bet is to take your chances that if you give him what he wants, he'll let you live. Not all situations are alike, and sometimes the odds are more stacked against you than others. You have to learn to recognize this.

Any situation where you MUST perform a disarm is a last-ditch situation. You will either succeed or be killed or seriously wounded if you fail.
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Old December 15, 2013, 12:13 AM   #69
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And the point is that we can not focus on a specific technique because what might work will depend on a variety of factors, including exactly what is happening and what the defender is capable of.

The bottom line is that there may be possible ways to overcome an adversary's advantage, but there are no guarantees.
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Old December 15, 2013, 12:52 AM   #70
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If there was a counter between us... and assuming I was armed strong side IWB.... if I felt it was my only last resort option....

It is generally a natural reaction when a gun or knife pointed at a person is for them to raise their hands. I was taught in a few self defense classes most "bad guys" doing muggins and hold ups will basically expect you to raise your hands when threatened. This is the perfect opportunity to strike since your already motioning your hands up.

Again I am no expert or tactical commando or what have you, but I am assuming even at the counter the gun is in with in arms reach. I would try to strike the gun up basically grab his wrist or the gun and force it upwards with my off hand while trying to draw using my main hand. Would it actually work, who knows, I just feel like it might be a decent option and doesn't require any fancy moves, more of less its quick, deliberate, gross motor functions, but even those can go out the window under stress.

I am sure someone with more force on force training can tell me if I am nuts or not.
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Old December 15, 2013, 07:06 AM   #71
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We have our sales counter set up in a "L" shape in a relatively small room. No one can stand in front of the counter and see both guys stationed at computers on either end of the "L" at the same time, despite their very close proximity. On wonderful 8 Mile in Motown we have had people walk in we were certain had bad intentions, but the setup put them well out of their comfort zone....
Businesses need to be more proactive in their layout, just a few seemingly minor changes can put criminals at a big disadvantage.
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Old December 15, 2013, 05:45 PM   #72
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You can't prepare for everything, but you can hope that your awareness & timing gives you an advantage in whatever OODA Loop you may find yourself caught.

You learn, train & practice for what you anticipate you might actually encounter, and hope to handle the situation.

Develop an ongoing mindset to be able to react properly & effectively.

There was this one night when I was driving my POV on a major freeway, on the way home after getting off shift ... and my right/rear window took 2 hits/rounds from someone shooting at my car off in the dark somewhere. Annoying. Fortunate for me the shooter didn't appear to know how to lead a target traveling at freeway speeds, too.
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Old December 15, 2013, 06:05 PM   #73
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Robber walks in with gun already drawn

I've never been in that situation, but it seems to me that movement would be your best option. Drop, roll, run, whatever might cause the shooter to miss.
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Old December 15, 2013, 09:02 PM   #74
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Again, how many convenience store employees of ALL the convenience stores we have are going to have "Training,training,training" as you put it? Chances are that if they can afford Training,training,training, then they aren't working in a convenience store
Probably not many, but here's one. This happened close to where I live.



http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/09/0...gun-on-robber/
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Old December 16, 2013, 10:00 PM   #75
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I think we can add the life of Jelly Bryce to the fast-draw list.....

http://www.policeone.com/columnists/...nfighter-ever/
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