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Old December 10, 2013, 06:24 PM   #1
dakota.potts
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Robber walks in with gun already drawn

I have a friend that works at an overnight drug/general store chain. He happened to be off one night. On that night, a robber walked in and pulled a gun out of his jacket immediately and pointed it at the head of the clerk working there. He got what he wanted and then shot the clerk in the head anyways before leaving. He then went across the street to a local BBQ restaurant where a worker was dumping the trash out back. He shot the worker in the head.

The drug store employee thankfully survived. The BBQ restaurant employee did not.

I've wondered about this scenario lately. It seems to me that even carrying concealed would not have helped the first worker. The man walked in, gun already drawn, and made his demands. His demands were met and then he shot the worker anyways. I just don't see anything that would change the scenario. I doubt you could outdraw someone like that. Even if your draw is .9 seconds, the average human response time is .25 seconds. Do you just acquiesce and hope that the robber you're facing is one of the ones that won't kill you when they get what you want?

I'm not seeing any alternative answers. Pepper spray would seem to be worse than a firearm. Every answer I can think of is hope. Hope he turns his attention to someone else. Hope someone creates a diversion elsewhere. Hope he leaves when you give him what you want.

Is this just part of accepting that even in "normal" non-mall ninja scenarios, sometimes you can't be prepared for everything?
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Old December 10, 2013, 06:33 PM   #2
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Is this just part of accepting that even in "normal" non-mall ninja scenarios, sometimes you can't be prepared for everything?
Pretty much, no matter how prepared you think you are, there are always situations that you simply wont be prepared for. That's just life.
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Old December 10, 2013, 06:56 PM   #3
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About the only "thing" that may help in those type tragic situations is your wits, circa a fast thinking convenience store clerk in Phoenix ~1993: The bad guy walked in the store with his gun out, the cashier starts unloading the till into a bag, but feigns glances to the left of the bad guy a couple of times then says "hi officer smith". The bad guy turns all the way around to (not) see the (phantom) cop and is promptly shot in the back of head by the clerk and dies.

As Edward White of Apollo 1 said the week before dying in the capsule, "Everything we do in life is a risk".
Hopefully most clerks receive training on how to deal with this, but I expect not.
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Old December 10, 2013, 07:28 PM   #4
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Kinda regular around here. You just have to be SA 24/7 where I'm at. Being fast, you can still draw if you see him drawing outside and meet force with force. I'd had more than one with his gun out realize I was aimed and about to finish pulling the trigger.
It helps me that in my case, people were dying every week on my block and I wasn't complacent about it.
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Old December 10, 2013, 07:33 PM   #5
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I just don't see anything that would change the scenario.
That, sadly, sums it up.
We train to be better prepared for the situations we can change, but that certainly doesn't provide any guarantees. No matter how well trained you are, and no matter how great your situational awareness is, there's always the possibility that something's just going to blind side you.
We've all watched the movies and we like to think of ourselves as the hero protagonist, but sometimes the cards are just against you.

But there's no sense worrying about it. The odds of being in a violent conflict are low, and the odds of being in a violent conflict where you have no control over the outcome are even lower.

As the saying goes "God, grant me the strength to change the things I can, the courage to accept the things I can't, and wisdom to know the difference."

If you try to control every possible risk you'll wind up in a basement wearing a tinfoil hat.
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Old December 11, 2013, 01:34 AM   #6
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To concur with the others, yeah, sometimes there is not a lot you can do. Luckily many criminals aren't too intelligent, but you don't want to underestimate them. Some can be rather tactful. This was seen in the assassinations of Texas prosecutors this past summer. I recall reading about assassinations of LEOs in their patrol cars this year, and there were the four officers that were gunned down in the Washington coffee house a few years ago. Not to mention incidents like the D.C./Metro Snipers.

So what can we do? The key is being armed as much as possible, and making mental preparations, such as exit strategies or visualized responses to threats of violence. You can't be in condition yellow all the time, but if you plan you can effectively snap into condition red when needed.
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Old December 11, 2013, 08:20 AM   #7
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If they have the drop on you mostly all you can really do is pray they are not a sociopath. Didn't work in that scenario.

There are techniques for disarming people who have guns pointed at your head. I'd have to have to try one in real life. It does require a bit of training as well.
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Old December 11, 2013, 10:31 AM   #8
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The hypothetical is all well and good.

I really suggest that such scenarios be tried in a controlled FOF situation.

Some immediate responses to the sight of a gun being drawn can alter the situation. Saying you are out of luck or what can I do? It's hopeless - wah.

Well, try it.
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Old December 11, 2013, 10:41 AM   #9
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Yeah.. That's life. Happened to my old man as well. He's alive and well right now. But his life was in the hands of someone else with a bullet between them. Unfortunately the primer wasn't facing him.

My half-brother was shot.

My uncle was shot.

This stuff happens more often than not.


We are always as the "good guys" in the defensive. The offense "bad guys" will usually always have the drop on you.

We go into day by day life just living in the moment. They look for harming other. They consider robbing people going to "work" in the morning. Legitimate work. Their minds are conditioned through poverty to feel that's the only way to make money. Their senses of killing a stranger is gone. They're desensitized by someone who trained them at a much younger age. They feel it's the norm.


We are in the defensive. Even as a LEO.

Only time good guys are on the offense that I've seen is military (war) and S.R.T (S.W.A.T).
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Old December 11, 2013, 11:20 AM   #10
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When I was in the Army I worked part time for a Security Guard outfit in Colombus, GA. for awhile and they eventually moved me to working a liquor store. All the clerks had guns stashed at their registers, I was uniformed and they had a podium for me to sit at when I wasn't walking the store. One night a guy who owned a bar was short a couple of prime brands and came in to get a couple bottles. He was in his convertible corvette and he was armed, he didn't want to leave his gun in his car so he brought it in, in his holster, in his hand held up at head level for all to see. He was at least 5 steps through the door before it registered on me what he had in his hand, then that he wasn't supposed to have it, and that he was in turn making sure we didn't shoot him for it.

I realized at that moment that if someone came in determined and willing to vanquish any resistance I would not be able to stop them, and that this is exactly why this liquor store paid for a uniformed security guard when they were all armed themselves. I was the pop-up target and even if I didn't know it, I was being paid to take the first shots and give them time to react.

I quit really fast.
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Old December 11, 2013, 11:27 AM   #11
Glenn E. Meyer
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Nice piece by Greg E. on BGs and training:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=737194

I think it reinforces that training is essential.
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Old December 11, 2013, 11:34 AM   #12
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There is not as many trap doors as there should be. If I owned such a business I would build a drop door at the checkout point, it would be triggered by a sequence on the register. One more possible trap door in front of the counter would keep the trash captive until someone arrived to take out the trash. Gunfighting is a last resort thing. Escape, reposition, gain some advantage or keep moving to safety, or die. If a gun is drawn on you have no advantage until you do something to gain it. Drop and roll might work if you know how to draw a gun and roll and have worked on this skill, and you have the physical/mental condition required to pull it off.

If there is a counter between you and the bad guy and you just dropped and roll the instant you see the gun then he would need to move forward and point down to shoot you. That's all the time you need if you pratice it. But if you try and invent a move when the time comes to need it, you will be thinking to much and fumble fingers will grown on your hands, the safety function will require your reading the manual and the snaps will not unsnap while you are laying on the holster and.....
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Old December 11, 2013, 11:37 AM   #13
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There are training methods for dealing with these kinds of possibilities.
While they provide no guarantees of survival, knowing them is a whole lot better than not.
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Old December 11, 2013, 12:02 PM   #14
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I’ve been robbed and shot and even when situationally aware time stands still.
Even a well trained individual may or may not be able to avert the situation.
IMHO luck plays a major role.
Do the opportunities present themselves where you can take advantage of your training and or wits?
If they don’t you have little chance to change the out come.
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Old December 11, 2013, 04:26 PM   #15
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I doubt you could outdraw someone like that. Even if your draw is .9 seconds, the average human response time is .25 seconds.
This is why you should train to MOVE FIRST and DRAW SECOND. Immediate movement off the line of attack is your protection. As soon as you're in motion off the line of attack, THEN start your draw. If you try to do both simultaneously (start to move AND start to draw) then you won't clear of the bad guy's muzzle as quickly and you may also telegraph that you're about to do him harm.
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Old December 11, 2013, 05:38 PM   #16
Glenn E. Meyer
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Good point - if you wait till the gun is at your head - well, that's a disadvantage but even then not insurmountable.

I have seen folks in training beat a drawn gun pointed at them. In FOF, I walked through a door (I had to!) to face two folks with drawn guns - in the following melee of movement, I took two peripheral hits but got two COMs.

Of course, that is not guaranteed, nor an indication of my ninja abilities. Just saying, it ain't over till its over.

On the other hand, I was the crook with the drawn gun and the clerk hit me in the noggin. I fell to the ground and then 'shot' his inner thigh repeatedly. 5
38's (Code Eagle) for real in your leg would have been nasty.
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Old December 11, 2013, 07:27 PM   #17
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If its pressed against your head. Make a grab for the gun. If theres a counter dive and draw firing through or over the counter. The act of fighting back is sometimes enough. If it ain't. Keep fighting.

Quote:
There is not as many trap doors as there should be. If I owned such a business I would build a drop door at the checkout point, it would be triggered by a sequence on the register. One more possible trap door in front of the counter would keep the trash captive until someone arrived to take out the trash.
Lol. I could also immagine a couple of old air bags strategically placed under floor tiles or wall of the counter.
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Old December 11, 2013, 07:45 PM   #18
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I'm right now teaching a young lady from my church defensive use of a handgun. She is taught not to stand flat footed in the sights of another. Your best chance is if you move your butt. She is taught to draw and fire on the run. The biggest flaw in any defensive training is to STAND and fight.
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Old December 11, 2013, 08:05 PM   #19
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About the only "thing" that may help in those type tragic situations is your wits, circa a fast thinking convenience store clerk in Phoenix ~1993: The bad guy walked in the store with his gun out, the cashier starts unloading the till into a bag, but feigns glances to the left of the bad guy a couple of times then says "hi officer smith". The bad guy turns all the way around to (not) see the (phantom) cop and is promptly shot in the back of head by the clerk and dies.
Yep, create you own diversion. Back many moons ago I was big into Karate, and we got taught about diversion tactics. Raise your arm up quickly at a 45 degree angle, shake your hand rapidly and scream. 99% of the people your are facing will look up at your hand. There’s your diversion! May only last half a second, but that half second may be all the time you need. If it doesn't work, at least you went down trying.
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Old December 11, 2013, 09:19 PM   #20
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"Even if your draw is .9 seconds, the average human response time is .25 seconds. " [dakota potts]

Slow, have to get quicker. Lance Thomas kept guns behind the counter, survived numerous robberies, shot eleven perps. He was lucky too, took a slug thru the neck.

If you carry and want to get Bill Jordan/Bob Munden quick, you need three things: the right gun, the right holster, and the right technique. Both of the aforementioned gents used different guns, different holsters and different techniques, but had similar results.

My 3 factors are different too.

I can also cheat... i.e. palm a small gun/shoot thru clothing, etc. but excellent radar is necessary here, will transition to a like system should one day my hand speed deteriorate (i.e. arthritis).

"The biggest flaw in any defensive training is to STAND and fight." [garryc]

Thats what I do. (A bad back limits quick body movements, so my only option is to draw and shoot.) Worked for Wyatt Earp. Crazy, huh? 2013 and I practice like I'm about to face John Wesley Hardin.

Best.
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Old December 11, 2013, 10:38 PM   #21
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Too many people are possessed of the notion that a self-defense incident is going to be like some kind of cowboy-quick-draw duel.

It's NOT. EVER. STOP THINKING THIS.

It never even happened a single verifiable time in the old west.
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Old December 11, 2013, 11:48 PM   #22
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Robber walks in with gun already drawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics View Post
Too many people are possessed of the notion that a self-defense incident is going to be like some kind of cowboy-quick-draw duel.



It's NOT. EVER. STOP THINKING THIS.

ZT,

Love your channel, and agree with most of what I see from you. I don't agree with the above. My disagreement isn't because I think that SD = quick draw duel. My disagreement is because I experienced a situation where somebody revealed a firearm and moved to present it, and I resolved the situation with no shots fired by beating him to presentation. The point I want to get across is not that "it is like this". Rather, my point is that we have no way of knowing what it will be like until it is happening.

I am a very big believer that draw speed is very relevant, mostly because of the possibility of resolving situations without violence. Two people I know also experienced situations where draw speed may have been the biggest determining factor in the level of violence. One was presented before he could be hit with a bat. The other failed to present before he could be physically engaged, and is now permanently disabled.

I think that draw is most relevant in situations where Ability and Opportunity are present, with Jeopardy being evidently imminent. This is to differentiate from situations where the encounter is moving before the defender sees it coming. When lethal force is being applied before the defender acts, a clean and smooth draw is far less likely. I suspect that getting off the X ASAP is job 1 at that point. Draw and everything else are less critical than "don't stand there and get killed".
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Old December 12, 2013, 08:35 AM   #23
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Quick deployment along with other tactics such as moving are indeed critical in some situations, but .9 seconds is just unrealistic for any but the super competitors.

Quote:
If you carry and want to get Bill Jordan/Bob Munden quick, you need three things: the right gun, the right holster, and the right technique. Both of the aforementioned gents used different guns, different holsters and different techniques, but had similar results.
At no point were these guys timed while working behind the counter, LOL. But for argument's sake, let's use the Bob Munden standard for what a quick draw should be in a self defense situation. Wait, let's back track. First of all, how many people here are quicker than Bob Munden?

Yeah, I have shot with and competed with some pretty darned fast folks, but none were professional grade like Bob Munden. But they, like Munden had several things in common that your run of the mill robbery victim does not have. They have the luxury of a timed start when THEY ARE READY. When the timer starts, they have already determined how they are going to do what they are going to do on a known course of fire. Their lives were not at risk and they had no concern about bystanders.

If you are Bill Jordan and Bob Munden good, you aren't working at a convenience store, except in the case of Bill Jordan who did it as part of police work specifically to stop robbers. So let's get back to realism. If you are working in a convenience store, chances are you can't afford going to Gunsite 2-3 times a year and putting 500-1000 rounds a week down range. You probably can't afford 100 rounds a week. You aren't sponsored by a department, gun company, ammo company or anyone else.

No, dakota.potts, you cannot be prepared for everything. That is the sad reality. Chances are that if you try to be prepared for everything, you won't have a life outside of trying to be prepared for everything.

You can look for signs and if you watch some of the videos on Youtube, you can often tell when the robber is going to rob the clerk. Of course like with the gun competitions, you already know it is going to happen and so the conclusion that you could tell it was going to happen is really pretty bogus. After you have seen a bunch of people every week that look like they are going to rob you who don't rob you, it becomes hard to tell that you are going to get robbed when it happens. On a given winter day, a clerk may have the store rushed by several customers (just trying to get in from the cold), some wearing masks (it is cold), some who are very agitated, upset, loud, or argumentative (just having a very bad day or are typical jerks), and there will be the furtive actors as well, some of which are just plain paranoid, stoned, etc. If you work in a less than glamorous part of town, you might have a lot of these each day. So 'knowing' you are about to be robbed and being 100% on your game to repel the robbers just isn't a reality for your average Joe Blow clerk. It doesn't matter who you are. Even professionals exposed to repetitive and frequent false alarms are unable to maintain levels of readiness necessary to be properly proficient when the time comes. You can try, but despite the claims of various gun gurus, nobody maintains Condition Yellow all the time.
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Old December 12, 2013, 09:43 AM   #24
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"... a self-defense incident is going to be like some kind of cowboy-quick-draw duel.*

It's NOT. EVER. STOP THINKING THIS.

It never even happened a single verifiable time in the old west. "

Really? In the Old West? How about Bill Hickok? William McCarty? Jesse James? I could go on. The common thread, these pistoleros died because they were ambushed.

Same today... few will call you out... most will ambush you. Nothing has changed. And some folks even today use SA revolvers, check out the revolver forum. Why a woman in Aspen Colorado shot a perp using a 44 cal black powder cap and ball Remington Army 1858 revolver. One shot.

And even here, Police Chief was almost car-jacked... and the last Police Chief has referred to the environs of Detroit as the "Wild West." +

And if you do a search on Detroit and shoot-outs you can find relevant videos.

The quicker I can get my handgun out the better, and Lady Luck.



* The classic one-on-one "cowboy-quick-draw duel" occurred as early as 1865, Hickok vs. Tutt. One should also recall that one of our presidents actively took part in duels.

+""Police Chief Calls Detroit “The Wild, Wild West”" Newsone, August 10, 2009
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Old December 12, 2013, 10:36 AM   #25
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I doubt you could outdraw someone like that.
Not true, not true at all.

After the Onion Field incident, police departments across the country adapted the policy "never give up your gun" and started a training program that showed that is not true.

I was a firearms instructor with the Anchorage Police Dept. at the time and we did just such training. It's not only possible but you increase your chances of survival with the training.

I'm retired now but still do such training. As a demonstration, I have one of my students aim at his target, I stand next to him/her with my hands in my pocket. I tell the student to fire at his target when he/she sees me start to draw. About 98% of the time I get the shot off first.

Pretty much the same way we did it with I was in LE, except now I pocket carry which is so much faster.

Another training aid is to have a student stand with his open hands extended as if he was going to clap, the hands are body width apart. Again, I start with my hands in my pockets. I tell the student to clap when he sees me start to draw. Seldom, less then 1% of the time do they clap their hands together before I get my gun between the hands (using a blue plastic gun, don't do it with a real gun obviously).

One poor girl in my class last night tried 10 times but still couldn't beat the gun.

In both of the above training scenarios, the student knew what I was going to do, yet couldn't beat me.

The idea is "you can act faster then you can re-act" The students knew what I was going to do, but they had to re-act where I had to act.

Best if you can distract you opponent, getting them talking is best, can't talk and shoot at the same time.

Its not about strength. Its not about being young and agile, I'm neither.

It's about confidence, confidence is gained by hours of practice and handling your gun. The gun has to be as comfortable in your hand as a cell phone is to a teenage girl.

Again its how you carry and what you carry. If you have to fight with cover garments or safeties it's going to be difficult. If you walk around with your hands in you pocket, the same one the pistol/revolver is in, its more doable.

I'm not saying I'm the best out there, what I'm saying is I have confidence.

Before you start ranting and calling me full of crap, (which is gonna happen), I teach a woman's Firearms Safety & Self Defense class every Wed. night, I challenge you to show up and test me.
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