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Old December 10, 2013, 01:16 PM   #51
RBid
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Carry Gun Paradigm Shift

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaerek View Post
I know this is a somewhat old post I'm replying to, but I think this could be dangerous thinking. This is what gets people to think .22 WMR is a good SD round. Why? Because the gun is easy to conceal!



I live near Tucson, AZ. I wear T-Shirt and Shorts 9-10 months of the year (I'm in jeans and jacket mode at the moment). I have absolutely no problem concealing and carrying a Glock 19 and a spare mag comfortably. I understand, when we're talking 9mm, .40, .45, they're all almost equally bad stoppers. But I won't compromise below 9mm. It just took me 3 or 4 holsters before I found one that did what I needed it to. Too many people think that they can't conceal a big gun in T-Shirt and Shorts. I've concealed a Glock 21 in T-Shirt and Shorts. That's a big gun. Very few would ever call it summer concealable. I did it just to prove I could.



EDIT: Read the rest of the thread, and wanted to comment on this.







I'd choose the .45 each and every time. His skills with the Beretta will transfer to the .45. Maybe he's not as accurate, but in a life or death situation, being able to shoot lights out with their eyes closed (I assume on a square range, no pressure) will have little transfer-ability to a situation where people are moving around, adrenaline is pumping, etc. In other words, your friend will probably be almost equally bad at hitting his target in this situation with either gun. I'll take the round that makes the bigger hole.



Now, if it was a choice between nothing or the .22, I'd take the .22. But, repeat after me, ".22 LR is not a good defense round choice!"







In other words:



"Sometimes hollowpoints fail, so lets just load with an inferior round to match how the failed rounds act!"



The logic doesn't work here.

The meat of your post could have been read as:

"Sometimes people miss, so let's just use a harder recoiling round to help miss on shots we might have missed!"

That logic doesn't work here.

Within service calibers, give yourself the best possible chance to hit (on all shots, with speed). If a shooter's speed and accuracy are similar with 9 and another caliber, stepping up may make sense. Otherwise, stick with 9mm. Trading hits for misses is a bad exchange.

Again, I am NOT against other calibers. My position is: train, practice, make choices appropriate to skill level.
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Old December 10, 2013, 01:48 PM   #52
lcpiper
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Big gun Small gun.
Big frame Small frame
Big bullet small bullet
Big recoil Small recoil
Big mag Small mag
Big training Small training


There are so many perimeters that when combined form the totality of an individuals self defense capacity. It is so very easy to focus on just a few aspects of that picture while ignoring others that are still part of the picture.

This one comment "A solid hit with a bigger caliber is better than a solid hit with a smaller caliber." is no less true then the others. If this was the only part of the picture we would all be carrying Desert Eagles in .50 Cal but I don't see much of that going on.

Every individual is exactly that, an individual, with individual needs and individual restrictions.

The only things that matter are that you can and do carry it and can use it proficiently, that it will function when you need it and it has to have enough ammo to see you through a scrape. You have to be comfortable with it and trust it. If these requirements are met then odds are it will get the job done for you in any situation that a carry handgun is sufficient for.
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Old December 10, 2013, 03:45 PM   #53
Gaerek
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Quote:
"Sometimes people miss, so let's just use a harder recoiling round to help miss on shots we might have missed!"

That logic doesn't work here.
I'm wondering if you even read my post.

I carry a 9mm. I mentioned carrying a .45 (the Glock 21) just to show that it could be done, but I rarely carry it, unless it's range day, and it's the gun I decided to bring with me.

Below 9mm, you're really starting to compromise. I'd even be willing to put .380 in the same boat as a 9, .40, .45 (as far as being good enough stoppers)...but then again, you're usually back in the heavy recoil boat with most .380's out there.

If you're commenting on the .22LR vs .45 argument...honestly, I don't even know why this is an argument. A .22 will not stop someone, unless you just happen to hit the spinal column or brain stem. I've been shot with a .22 (not by myself, by some idiot next to me), and I didn't even realize it until I blood dripping off my leg onto the floor. I felt a sting, but I thought it was splatter or a ricochet or something. No adrenaline, just minding my own business, loading up magazines in my stall. Now imagine an attacker hopped up on adrenaline/meth/PCP/whatever who's attacking you. You think he's going to feel that pea shooter? You're telling me you're confident enough in your own abilities to get a stopping shot with that .22 everytime you pull the trigger?

For me, I'll favor the gun I have to shoot slower, but I know will be felt, even if I don't happen to get a spinal column hit.

Yes...accuracy trumps everything. But assuming your accuracy is the same in a fight regardless of caliber (which almost assuredly will be...) I'll trust my life with the round that makes the bigger hole.

Honestly, I can't believe we're having an actual discussion comparing a well known and established stopper like a .45, with a .22. It would be comical, if it weren't actually happening.
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Old December 14, 2013, 12:34 PM   #54
SansSouci
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doc540,

Shot placement is the most important criterion of all: shot placement of the guy trying to kill you. It is far more important than your shot placement.

There is a tactical advantage of a large capacity magazine. Not having to reload is an extremely valuable tactical advantage. With that fact established, I'd rather have 8 .45 ACP rounds than any amount of 9MM rounds. But that's merely my opinion. Others will see it differently.
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Old December 15, 2013, 03:51 PM   #55
Sharpsdressed Man
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Let's see your Glock with the appropriate "barrel attachment"!
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Old December 16, 2013, 03:07 PM   #56
cryption
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The gun you have on you is better than the gun you left at home. I used to carry my XD9 sub on occasion - whenever my wardrobe would allow it. I didn't carry as often as I should, and there were times I wish I had something on me - just in case.

So, I bought a pocket pistol. I got the Sig P238 (.380) and a pocket holster - and now I carry every single day. I'll forget to take it out of my pocket because it's so hard to notice. Cell phone in one pocket, Sig in the other, and I'm good to go for the day.

I don't worry so much that it's only a .380. I have put hundreds of rounds down range with this thing, a few snakes killed, and a lot of trees shot. I'm 100% confident in the weapon, in myself shooting the thing, and now I always have something on me.

Sure I love my 9mm, I love my 1911 that I NEVER carry because it's so big. But when it comes down to it your best bet is the .380 you have on you - or wishing you had carried your 9mm that day.
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Old December 16, 2013, 04:54 PM   #57
RBid
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Deleted a wall of text.

Short version:

Ask yourself what you want to be holding if you have to shoot to live. Determine how close you can get to THAT, on a daily basis.

When a person STARTS their search looking at the smallest possible options, they are typically doing it wrong.
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Old December 16, 2013, 08:30 PM   #58
SansSouci
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cryption,

If the best handgun is the one you left at home, then you might be forced to save your life with an inferior one.
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