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Old November 27, 2013, 02:56 PM   #26
RBid
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I'm of the opinion that no carry firearm should be selected before the user shoots it with speed at realistic defensive distances, or 1 handed.
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Old November 27, 2013, 03:34 PM   #27
Gary L. Griffiths
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What with all the news (and lack thereof) about the "Knockout Game" my carry paradigm has shifted upwards. My general deep-concealment piece has gone from a Kel-Tec PF-9 to a Walther PPS in .40, to a Springfield XDS .45ACP. Surprisingly, the Springfield proved easier to shoot than the Walther, and much easier than the long-trigger-pull PF9.

For serious social occasions, I had been carrying a Taurus PT-145, but have now purchased a Sar K-2 -- 14 rds of .45 ACP in a conventional double-action with 4.7" barrel. Will be picking it up next week, and have already purchased a Viridian X-5 laser/light combo for it.

Nowadays I also carry high-cap 9mms with extra mags in both my vehicles.

The time we live in.
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Old November 27, 2013, 04:45 PM   #28
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"I'm of the opinion that no carry firearm should be selected before the user shoots it with speed at realistic defensive distances, or 1 handed. "

That's some good advice.

I've owned three other Glocks before this G19.

Today, rapid fire in 4-6 shot strings at 30 feet.

With practice this is going to work just fine.

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Old November 27, 2013, 05:50 PM   #29
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And it will Doc.

That group was at 10 yards.

While it's good enough we all know under combat conditions the group will be larger.

So keep practicing. I do!

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Old November 28, 2013, 10:35 PM   #30
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Plan to be at the range again tomorrow.

It sure was nice to be able to shoot rapidly and get back on target quickly with the powder puff 9mm compared to my .45.

It seemed more like a .22 WMR.

Also, the thick Glock grip fits my hand like it was a custom design.

Just feels right.
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Old November 30, 2013, 03:07 PM   #31
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General Thoughts on the subject

A solid hit with a bigger caliber is better than a solid hit with a smaller caliber. If you can't get your head around that, don't bother reading the rest.

I am amazed with the number of people who have decided before the fact: A. They will panic when confronted with danger, and B. They will miss a lot if they have to shoot. (My plans include neither.)

One must carry a sidearm useful to the carrier. This must be decided by the person in question. But anything carried must be 'useful' (carryable, shootable, controlable and so forth) or it is merely an amulet of some sort.

One responds to danger as one has trained; this includes self-training. If one has no sort of training at all, one will do exactly that. Nothing.
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Old November 30, 2013, 06:57 PM   #32
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In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a time when one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.
Yes. Every time one of them kills or seriously injures an innocent bystander.
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Old November 30, 2013, 08:17 PM   #33
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I can't carry in my state but if I could, I would carry the Five-seveN because it's reliable and has 20 shots. (and the cartridges are much more powerful than 22 LR)
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Old November 30, 2013, 10:28 PM   #34
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
A solid hit with a bigger caliber is better than a solid hit with a smaller caliber. If you can't get your head around that, don't bother reading the rest.
True but a solid hit with a smaller caliber is better than a peripheral hit with a bigger one.

Quote:
I am amazed with the number of people who have decided before the fact: A. They will panic when confronted with danger, and B. They will miss a lot if they have to shoot. (My plans include neither.)
How did you find out they had decided that? Did they vote on it?

Quote:
One must carry a sidearm useful to the carrier. This must be decided by the person in question. But anything carried must be 'useful' (carryable, shootable, controlable and so forth) or it is merely an amulet of some sort.
I'd hope so.

Quote:
One responds to danger as one has trained; this includes self-training. If one has no sort of training at all, one will do exactly that. Nothing.
Actually fight or flight is the inborn reaction. If no training they may very well just run away if they think they can.


Quote:
In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a time when one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.
And in that same 'history of gunfighting' no doubt there are those who ran out of ammo and wished they had lighter ammo so they could carry more and not run out.

And also in that 'history of gunfighting' there are MANY cases of people wishing they had a lighter gun to carry day after day after day. For a heavy gun is apt to be left at home.

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Old December 1, 2013, 10:38 AM   #35
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Quote:
(from Archie):
A solid hit with a bigger caliber is better than a solid hit with a smaller caliber. If you can't get your head around that, don't bother reading the rest.

True but a solid hit with a smaller caliber is better than a peripheral hit with a bigger one.
But that's not the point he made: "A solid hit with a bigger caliber is better than a solid hit with a smaller caliber..." Hard to argue with that.


Quote:
(from Japle):
In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a time when one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

Yes. Every time one of them kills or seriously injures an innocent bystander.
Again, I don't think anyone can reasonably argue with this opinion from Japle. In the course of my thirty year le career, I've had the responsibility to interview more than a few gunfight survivors and I have yet to talk with anyone who thought that having less bullets on board would have been a good idea. And there's no validity to the myth that, just because you carry more ammunition than the next guy makes you any more predisposed to expend those extra bullets in a reckless manner. Good training and much practice obviates any predilection to "spray and pray".
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Old December 1, 2013, 07:55 PM   #36
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Quote:
But that's not the point he made:
But it's the point I made.

A solid hit with a smaller caliber IS better than a peripheral hit with a bigger one.

And the smaller rounds tend to be easier at delivering that solid hit.

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Old December 2, 2013, 04:40 PM   #37
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I'm going to second the comments just made by Deaf in his last couple of posts, with one refinement ...

In most people the instinctive response to a loud noise or perceived danger is freeze, fight or flight.

The freeze reaction is strong in most folks, but it can be overcome via dedicated training.

The fight or flight reactions are probably best made when combined with at least some knowledge, experience and training so they have a chance of being sound tactical considerations, and hopefully being successful.

It always amazes me that so many folks seem to think that "instinctive" will always mean "successful", or "appropriate for the circumstances".

Training gives you options.

Good, proper training ... combined with good decision-making under stress ... may give you potentially better options.

Someone's "paradigm shift" might simply be someone else's idea of common sense.
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Old December 2, 2013, 07:03 PM   #38
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re: Carry Gun Paradigm Shift

You can carry a $1k gun, or a $350 gun, the results are the same, when you do it right, every time.

.45ACP/9mm/.38 Special/.22 LR or WMR. They all go boom. Where are you plascing? Are you placing in a 'target' profile, putting one bullet right behind the other? On paper, that's great, but for Center of Mass of the human body, the more holes, the merrier.

Full metal flat points/ semiwadcutters/wadcutters/big and small hollowpoints, that is your choice, your money. From my P.O.V., from a revolver, Elmer Keith started the ball rolling with semi-wadcutters. Big-city PD's, circa 1950's, and that old Civil Defense organization, in the '60's, used full wadcutters. Hollowpoints that don't fail as designed, become wadcutters, so why not skip the failure, and just use WC's or SWC's?

When I was a GI in Thailand, it was my Model 15, and that Winchester ammo, that they now call 'target' ammunition. I was not any military law enforcement type. I was on the fence, on the 'back 40' of the airbase.
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Old December 3, 2013, 06:56 PM   #39
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Quote:
Quote:
But that's not the point he made:

But it's the point I made.

A solid hit with a smaller caliber IS better than a peripheral hit with a bigger one.

Most, I assume, would agree. I don't see anyone arguing against your "point". But your point has nothing to do with what Archie said: Again,: " A solid hit with a bigger caliber is better than a solid hit with a smaller caliber." You, I assume, would not dispute this bit of ballistic wisdom.
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Old December 7, 2013, 09:40 PM   #40
doc540
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been running 10yd drills

dumping/rapid fire 5 shot strings

really enjoying shooting and carrying this G19
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Old December 7, 2013, 10:45 PM   #41
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doc540,

This is Frank Proctor. Frank is an Army SF veteran and USPSA Grandmaster. Frank likes Glock 19s. This is him breaking one in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaFNkKyD-bI
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Old December 7, 2013, 11:38 PM   #42
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For Whom The Bell Tolls, indeed

Thanks for posting that.

I stopped it and tried to watch it frame by frame, especially his left hand.
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Old December 8, 2013, 12:42 AM   #43
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Quote:
One of my firearm mentors convinced me that shot placement trumps caliber. (And I've been a .45 ACP guy.)
So if you have a gun in .45acp that you shoot better than a gun in 9mm, you should carry the .45.

Would that be true with a 7 shot .45 as opposed to a 13 shot 9mm?

What if your second shot from the 9mm tended to be more accurate and quicker than the second shot from the .45? Does shot placement for the first shot trump shot placement from the second?

While I agree that shot placement is the most important thing, it does not follow that a 9mm is superior to a .45acp.
Accuracy is made up of different elements. imho how a gun fits is a more important consideration than caliber.
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Old December 8, 2013, 07:02 AM   #44
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Wow that dude can run a 19
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Old December 8, 2013, 07:43 AM   #45
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Yep, shot placement probably trumps caliber, between 9mm, 40SW, 45 ACP. I shoot paper every weekend and practice drawing my XDS/Sig P220 as often as there is crap on TV (pretty often). If attacked by paper at 7-10 yards, all is good. IMHO, unless you train in a threatening situation, the skill you hone at the range will diminish - due to the adrenaline rusk, varied surroundings, etc. Yes, a 9mm would give you more rounds to try and hit the aggressor, and in many cases it will be more than enough to stop an aggressor, but I opted for 45ACP because I wanted a small CCW that i will actually carry - and IMHO, 9 rounds of 9mm is not much better than 7 rounds of 45ACP. I carry the XDS or the P220 daily and never do I fell under armed.
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Old December 8, 2013, 10:08 AM   #46
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Great thread with lots of good comments to absorb (most for the better).

That said, I like to use the hypothetical of 'what if' I were unarmed and with someone who was carrying (depending on them for my life)--would I prefer that the individual be carrying that Hi-Cap SAR K2 .45ACP (love that gun) of which they occasionally shoot due to high ammo costs (I know lots of guys that have really cut down on practice due to high ammo costs/availability) or a Beretta 21A in .22lr (forget .25acp as it's ridiculously expensive) which they shoot lights out with their eyes closed precisely because they consistently practice with cheap/affordable ammo...? I would choose the latter every-time but YMMV.
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Old December 9, 2013, 06:45 PM   #47
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simple

and I can shoot it

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Old December 10, 2013, 10:06 AM   #48
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IMHO, concealability trumps caliber and most other considerations.
I know this is a somewhat old post I'm replying to, but I think this could be dangerous thinking. This is what gets people to think .22 WMR is a good SD round. Why? Because the gun is easy to conceal!

I live near Tucson, AZ. I wear T-Shirt and Shorts 9-10 months of the year (I'm in jeans and jacket mode at the moment). I have absolutely no problem concealing and carrying a Glock 19 and a spare mag comfortably. I understand, when we're talking 9mm, .40, .45, they're all almost equally bad stoppers. But I won't compromise below 9mm. It just took me 3 or 4 holsters before I found one that did what I needed it to. Too many people think that they can't conceal a big gun in T-Shirt and Shorts. I've concealed a Glock 21 in T-Shirt and Shorts. That's a big gun. Very few would ever call it summer concealable. I did it just to prove I could.

EDIT: Read the rest of the thread, and wanted to comment on this.

Quote:
That said, I like to use the hypothetical of 'what if' I were unarmed and with someone who was carrying (depending on them for my life)--would I prefer that the individual be carrying that Hi-Cap SAR K2 .45ACP (love that gun) of which they occasionally shoot due to high ammo costs (I know lots of guys that have really cut down on practice due to high ammo costs/availability) or a Beretta 21A in .22lr (forget .25acp as it's ridiculously expensive) which they shoot lights out with their eyes closed precisely because they consistently practice with cheap/affordable ammo...? I would choose the latter every-time but YMMV.
I'd choose the .45 each and every time. His skills with the Beretta will transfer to the .45. Maybe he's not as accurate, but in a life or death situation, being able to shoot lights out with their eyes closed (I assume on a square range, no pressure) will have little transfer-ability to a situation where people are moving around, adrenaline is pumping, etc. In other words, your friend will probably be almost equally bad at hitting his target in this situation with either gun. I'll take the round that makes the bigger hole.

Now, if it was a choice between nothing or the .22, I'd take the .22. But, repeat after me, ".22 LR is not a good defense round choice!"

Quote:
Hollowpoints that don't fail as designed, become wadcutters, so why not skip the failure, and just use WC's or SWC's?
In other words:

"Sometimes hollowpoints fail, so lets just load with an inferior round to match how the failed rounds act!"

The logic doesn't work here.

Last edited by Gaerek; December 10, 2013 at 10:17 AM.
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Old December 10, 2013, 10:23 AM   #49
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First, I'm glad that (for the most part) most posters have refrained from the common caliber war "mine is better than yours" BS that threads like these often devolve into. Personally, I think all the major auto calibers (9mm, .357SIG, .40S&W, and .45ACP) are just fine, and each have advantages and disadvantages v. the others. Which you choose is a matter of preference and which advantages you value over the others.

As for the OP's original idea of having a "carry gun paradigm shift", that is a valid thing to do, probably preferable to those who pick something and then don't think about it again. We should always be re-evaluating our choices as new information comes available or as our situations change. Sometimes, the re-evaluation may confirm our original choices, other times we may make a change.

While I don't live in a shall issue state and CCW's are nearly impossible for the average person here, I do have an out of state CCW and carry when in one of the surrounding states (which is fairly often). I have been interested in and focused on CCW for about a decade. In that time, I have gone back and forth between autos and revolvers several times. I started with DAO autos, switched to 1911s, and went back to DAO (or DA first trigger pull) and no manual safety on my CCW autos. I have carried .32ACP, .380ACP, 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP (and still have active carry guns in .380 for when nothing bigger than my LCP will do, in 9mm, in .40 and in .45). Not long ago my primary CCWs when out of state were a Taurus 85CH (IWB) often paired with a S&W 442 (pocket) or a S&W 1911SC. Right now, my most common carry is a SIG 290RS, and I bought a .45ACP P250C to sometimes take its place (after I get sufficient rounds through it).

I strongly believe that periodically re-evaluating and occasionally changing your choices indicates that you are an intelligent and thinking person.

Last edited by chaim; December 10, 2013 at 10:30 AM.
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Old December 10, 2013, 11:05 AM   #50
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Too many folks get caught up in the He said/She said debate when it comes to their own EDC. Funny, how every gun rag writer and internet poster is an expert on what other folks should use. When it comes to the choice of an EDC and the ammo loaded in it, one needs to choose what they are comfortable with, proficient with and have the most confidence in. This needs to come from not only what one reads and hears, but from practice and personal testing/experience. If it ever comes down to having to use it in a real life scenario and it fails, there is really only one person to blame.
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