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Old November 15, 2013, 10:57 PM   #1
jabba21
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New ammo technology/multiple impact bullet

Has anyone seen this yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6FYr0N3xt8

This new design touts “increased hit probability and stopping power". I thought it was really gimmicky at first but I try to remain open minded with new technology. I try to reserve judgement until thorough testing has been done. I'd love to see some penetration testing. Testing videos are supposedly on the way.
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Old November 15, 2013, 11:09 PM   #2
Dragline45
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I would never use this stuff.

1. There's no way to actually hit what you are aiming at reliably. The fragments spread to the point that they are hitting randomly on target. If you aim center mass, these rounds have a spread of 14 inches and will to put it simply, not hit center mass. If I want multiple projectiles hitting the target, and that will penetrate sufficiently, I will use a shotgun. Plain and simple.

2. These fragmented pieces will lack sufficient penetration needed to hit vitals, very similar to the gimicky fragmentation ammo you see. Especially since it has a piece of string holding them together. What if that string does not disconnect upon impact? It will prevent the rounds from penetrating even more than they normally would.

3. All it takes is for even the slightest thing to get in the way and that string holding those rounds together will either throw the rounds completely off target, or tangle around the object and maybe stop all together.

4. If the round separates before feeding into the barrel, it will lock up your gun. Forget about tap and rack drills, the round will not eject like normal ammunition would.

5. If one of the fragments hits the target, or would hit, and the other two miss the target, it seems that the other two fragments have enough weight and momentum to pull the single fragment that would have otherwise hit.

5. There $50 for 10 rounds. I cant afford to spend hundreds of dollars function testing this ammo.

Last edited by Dragline45; November 15, 2013 at 11:52 PM.
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Old November 16, 2013, 08:45 AM   #3
Mike Irwin
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Wow. I'm gobsmacked... They've reinvented chain shot.

That target hanging behind them, with the widely spaced hits, including the complete miss over the left shoulder, doesn't inspire much confidence.

I quit watching before I saw the price. You have got to be kidding me...
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Old November 16, 2013, 09:30 AM   #4
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I think I read somewhere that "chain-shot" was originally designed for ship-mounted cannons and was used with the intent of disabling the mast of an enemy ship. No idea if it was effective or not. Seems like this ammo would have way too many drawbacks in a shotgun. I'll stick to 00 and #1 buckshot for defense.
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Old November 16, 2013, 10:00 AM   #5
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I'll stick with what I have. Hitting my target is not an issue...

Especially for that price.
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Old November 16, 2013, 10:06 AM   #6
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This stuff will be fun with any kind of break/flash suppressor!
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Old November 16, 2013, 11:10 AM   #7
Mike Irwin
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Chain and bar shot were developed as anti-rigging projectiles. Their primary effectiveness was against rigging, though, as they would scythe through stays, active rigging, and sails, destabilizing the masts and making it difficult if not impossible to maneuver the ship.

Against masts themselves they weren't as effective as solid shot due simply to the large diameter of most masts.
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Old November 16, 2013, 11:39 AM   #8
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I wonder what performance looks like if the tethering is absent. A number of folk have loaded multiple short wadcutters, flying hockey pucks, in various rounds, mostly .357 Mag and .357 Max. As I recall, spread at self defense range was modest and useful. Old tech, not "new", but why pay for doodads unnecessarily?

Run a search on "quadraximum."
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Old November 16, 2013, 12:50 PM   #9
Dragline45
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Quote:
I wonder what performance looks like if the tethering is absent.
As with all fragmenting ammo, it will lack sufficient penetration to hit vitals.
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Old November 16, 2013, 06:26 PM   #10
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Boy does that video need some work.

$60 for a box of 10 .45 ACP rounds...

(But as they said over and over and over, you don't PRACTICE with this stuff, except for a couple of times, you only use this stuff FOR REAL. You put two rounds at the top of your magazine then follow it up with your regular rounds...two boxes would last you a life time they say...

I would have liked to seen what kind of penetration the stuff has. They mentioned shooting a watermelon but they never did shoot anything besides the paper target.

Eh...I think I'll pass on this stuff. And I kinda want the 33 minutes I spent watching it back too.
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Old November 16, 2013, 06:41 PM   #11
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Another brilliant idea that just doesn't work, but some people may actually buy it. If I want to put two or three bullets in a target, I will fire two or three shots.

In fact, double and triple bullet rounds have been tried many times, going back to the old "buck and ball" loads in muskets. And they produced much tighter groups than the one shown in that video. Another double bullet was produced by the simple expedient of cutting a .38 wadcutter in half crosswise, and loading the two parts as one bullet. It works.

Jim
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Old November 17, 2013, 02:24 PM   #12
jabba21
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The responses so far are pretty much what I expected. Just to play devil's advocate and address a few of the issues...

For not being able to hit what you're aiming at; if you hit center mass, the fragments will all hit 7 inches from the center aiming point. It's kind of the point that it compensates for improper shot placement. For instance, it has a 14 inch diameter spread. If you're aiming for center mass and you pull a shot in any direction, one of the fragments will be pulled back toward your original aiming point. Basically, 7 inches of compensation in any direction.

So I guess, if you have good shot placement at center mass, you will have three fragments that hit not at your aiming point. If you have bad shot placement, you should have at least one fragment that hits close to your aiming point. If one or two of the fragments miss, he says they are supposed to vector back toward the center. I'm not sure how that would work exactly. If that did work like he said, then I'm sure that would further reduce any penetrating power they might have. But the point is to have a higher hit probability. In that aspect alone, yeah, I can see them increasing that.

The mindset of "I have no problem hitting my target" is great if you can actually do it. I do stationary shooting to different types of moving combat drills and I usually have no problem hitting my target either. However, I've never actually had to shoot at someone in a life or death situation. As much training as I can do, there is still no really good way to simulate that. I hope (and the training certainly helps) but I have no way to know what my shot placement would be like in that situation until it actually happens.

Tangling up, locking up your gun etc. are valid concerns as well but may never actually be a real issue. Lots of testing would have to be done before I'd be comfortable on that subject.

I think the biggest downfall would be the penetration power. They sell a "lethal" and a "stunner" version. The "stunner" version doesn't make much sense to me because I'm not a fan of any "less than lethal" round. But still, I don't see the "lethal" version being able to adequately penetrate.

Increasing hit probability, I will give them that. Being a viable stopping round, I don't think so. I'd still like to see penetration tests. But then again, they do recommend to only load one or two rounds and have the rest with your normal carry load. So, the point is to at least get the first one or two rounds on target.
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Old November 17, 2013, 03:08 PM   #13
Bill DeShivs
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Think about increasing MISS probability.
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Old November 17, 2013, 03:25 PM   #14
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lol another corny "magic" bullet for the trash heap.

innovations great but it always leads to a few WTH products.

I'll agree with above Chain shot was to tear up the rigging system of an enemy ship.
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Old November 17, 2013, 06:25 PM   #15
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Interesting form an engineering standpoint, but not much beyond that.

Looks like snake oil to me
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Old November 17, 2013, 09:33 PM   #16
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The tether might be something new for a pistol round, have to do some digging to be sure, but it is just another multi ball round. The government has been playing with that idea for over 50 years. The picture shows a couple of them the top intended for riot control was just a shot round, 12 pellets and 4 chunks of shrapnel it dates from 1964. The other is closer to this magic bullet with out the tether and made in 1972 sabot grabs the rifling and peals off as it leaves the barrel exposing 3 disks and a cone going down range. If memory serves, at 20 feet it had a spread of about 9 inches.
So like venom said "...another corny "magic" bullet for the scrap heap."
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Old November 17, 2013, 09:52 PM   #17
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At $50 / 10 rounds, I'll pass.
But it is kinda interesting.
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Old November 17, 2013, 09:54 PM   #18
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Didn't this get invented hundreds of years ago? It was called a blunderbuss.

The blunderbuss evolved to become the shotgun.
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Old November 17, 2013, 10:56 PM   #19
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^^^Like Axelwik said^^^
The impact shots would be the about same as being hit by a bunch of nuts and bolts out of a blunderbuss or old shotgun, just not a effective!
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Old November 18, 2013, 08:03 AM   #20
Jim Watson
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There was a good deal of interest in "strung buckshot" for shotguns back before choke boring was well understood. It hung on for a long time, Elmer Keith referred to stringing buckshot on fishing line. I think one of the gimmick shotshell companies still offers it.

Three irregular segments tied together and stuffed into a pistol case do not impress me.
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Old November 18, 2013, 09:08 AM   #21
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The Marine Corps used a similar concept when boarding enemy ships as the range was short. Now that was during the Revolutionary War......
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Old November 18, 2013, 09:23 AM   #22
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God I was just reminded of how much I hate that guy's videos.


I would love to see how deep those fragments penetrate in gelatin. I bet it's not much.
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Old November 18, 2013, 01:18 PM   #23
jabba21
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^Ha, he is always so exuberant in his videos. I usually find it funny. He seems like a nice enough guy though.
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Old November 18, 2013, 05:30 PM   #24
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This is a bit like the square wheel invented by Hezikiah Pod. It was designed to not roll away on hills if you forgot to set the parking brake.
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Old November 19, 2013, 10:46 AM   #25
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The video is self serving clap trap.

I feel for those who've invested their money.

It wasn't the price of this stuff that gave me the biggest laugh. It was the statement that it was approved by the ATF for civilian use.
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