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Old November 19, 2013, 02:36 PM   #26
semi_problomatic
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A shotgun has very few advantages over a M4 in combat. Sure, you can use it to breach, but it's much slower than a water impulse charge or linear charge with a greater chance of unintentially hurting someone. Outdoors, even in the close confines of a city you still have limited range and accuracy trying to hit people shooting at you from rooftops and windows. It's magazine capacity is extremely small and gets even more limited when you add all the speciality rounds. Unless we had a specific need, our shotgun was loaded *riot rubber buckshot (chambered), rubber sabot, birdshot, 00 buck, 00 buck, lead slug* if we were going into a *known* hotspot we'd swap it to *bird (chambered), bird, 00 buck, 00 buck, slug, slug*

We mostly used the non lethals on cars that came too close and donkeys on the side of the road that like to wander in front of the trucks as we drove by. We never used it to breach, as a water impulse charge or linear charge is much faster and creates a bit of a shot not unlike a flash grenade to help us maintain suprise.

I have seen shotguns used on entry teams, but I have never seen them actually needed.


This is why I love the 12 gauge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6CBKUM9gk8
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Old November 19, 2013, 03:03 PM   #27
Dragline45
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I agree, for an all around combat weapon the M4 beats out a 12g shotgun, whether it be a pump or semi. But like I mentioned in previous post, for close quarters home defense I would still choose a 12g, for mid to long range I would choose something in .308 like an M1A/M14 or an AR10 even. Just not a fan of the .223 at all.
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Old November 19, 2013, 03:32 PM   #28
Bennyboy
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Home defense was the subject. In that case, 12 gauge wins.
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Old November 19, 2013, 04:20 PM   #29
shortwave
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Quote:
This is why I love the 12 gauge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6CBKUM9gk8
Man semi_problomatic,

my HD shotgun didn't come with those kind of accessories.
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Old November 19, 2013, 04:25 PM   #30
BigD_in_FL
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Quote:
Home defense was the subject. In that case, 12 gauge wins.
Whatever the least trained and most physically challenged shooter can successfully use is what wins - if that is a handgun, an M4, a 410 Judge loaded with 3-pellet 000 buck, or something else like a baseball bat or wasp spray
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Old November 19, 2013, 04:50 PM   #31
336A
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I"m sorry but I have to throw the BS flag here semi_problamatic. First off bird shot and slug ammunition is unauthorized ammo heck it's not even military issue. Using it is a good way to get yourself standing tall in front of the man. Being that I was an MLARM intstructor (since your probably with 4/10 I'm sure you know what MLARM is) breaching with a shotgun is quick, and causes way less collateral damage than either a linear flex charge or a water impulse. Using those are much slower than breaching with a shotgun, as you have to pull security as the breacher attaches either to the breach point. Then the stack has to move away from the blast radius. With a shotgun you don't have to do either.

Using rubber ammo of any type on vehicles is just down right foolish and is a good way to cause bad things to happen quick. That stuff is issued for crowd control and nothing more. The issued mossberg with the pistol grip is not a good weapon to rely upon for going into a *known* hotspot as accuracy is horrible past about 15 yards. The intended purpose of the pistol grip is to keep OAL length down so it's out of the way of your primary fighting weapon which is your M4.

Last edited by 336A; November 19, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
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Old November 19, 2013, 10:58 PM   #32
semi_problomatic
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Not mine, but funny:

Step 1: Hold shotgun towards lock at sharp angle
Step 2: lean your face and upper body as far as you can possibly contort yourself away from shotgun
Step 3: squeeze buttcheeks and grimace like a little girl about to get punched in the face as you pull the trigger
Step 4: pick pieces of giant medieval iraqi lock out of your face and repeat as necessary


This:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=607_1211071378

Is not faster than this:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...Okdtnl_yq3yQ3g

On breaching hazards:
Shotgun: If the shotgun muzzle is not held tightly against the door, splatter may occur that could affect friendly troops. Also, buckshot and rifled slugs can overpenetrate doors and may kill or wound occupants in the room

Water impulse: Explosive MOE has been perfected to such a degree that the secondary fragmentation from the door and the risk of over-pressure injuries to the hostages have been all but eliminated

http://cqb-team.com/breaching.php

And as far as rounds used/issued:

M1030 breaching SLUG
Mk 275
A001 CTG, 12 GAGE SKEET #9 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A002 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP/SKEET #7 1/2 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A003 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP/SKEET #8 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A004 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP/SKEET #8 1/2 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A005 CTG, 12 GAGE SKEET #9 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A006 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP #8 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A007 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP #8 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A019 CTG, 12 GAGE FLECHETTE
A020 CTG, 12 GAGE #4B BUCKSHOT XM/M257
A023 CTG, 12 GAGE 1 OZ SLUG

All military rounds.

The mossberg 500's we were issued came with pistol grips and regular stocks. After the first qual range, I didn't see a whole lot of pistol grips on shotguns. And we didn't use them for breaching, as I mentioned, prefering the use of water impulse charges. The shotguns mostly stayed on the trucks during missions; ie: donkeys and cars.

#8 and #9 are/can be used as breaching rounds. So can slugs. They're both still issued.

And as far as foolish things....well that was par for the course. My first depoloyment was OIF 1. Our training wasn't exactly stellar for what we encountered...

"is that an IED?"
"I dunno"
*bang bang*....."didn't explode..." *bang bang bang bang*
"guess not.."
*crunch crunch crunch kick*
"OH SH.....!!!!!"
.......
........
........
"guess it wasn't an IED"

So, say again? You can pick up your BS flag where it fell.

I know what you mean shortwave if only all shotguns came with that I might become a shotgun connoisseur
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Last edited by semi_problomatic; November 19, 2013 at 11:49 PM.
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