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Old November 19, 2013, 07:53 PM   #126
Glenn E. Meyer
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IDPA shooters can do this in about 2.5 (masters) to 3.5 seconds for competent MM shooters. For 6 rounds.
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Old November 19, 2013, 10:13 PM   #127
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If one is faced with multiple armed attackers willing to risk being shot to accomplish their goal, capacity is not at the head of the list of things that will help them survive.
No, but even an impressive level of skill won't help you if you don't have enough shots on hand to get the hits you need. As I stated in the quoted paragraph, "capacity is a real concern."

It's important to understand that one can't rely on either skill or capacity exclusively--it takes both. It's just as misguided to assume that skill can turn a 5 shot subcompact handgun into a weapon sufficient for stopping multiple determined attackers as it is to assume that 21 shots in the gun will make any defense successful, regardless of the defender's skill.
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Old November 20, 2013, 07:15 AM   #128
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^^^^

Extremely well put.
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Old November 20, 2013, 06:07 PM   #129
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I feel fairly comfortable with 10 in the mag but I choose to live in a fairly safe area.
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Old November 20, 2013, 07:32 PM   #130
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Here's the deal with the fairly safe area cliche.

If a gun fight starts, it is no longer a fairly safe area. Thus, do criminals or terrorists or rampage nutsos carry less firepower because they are going to do evil in a fairly safe area.

Sandy Hook was a fairly safe area - did that killer carry less? My, my - I think I will only carry my J frame on today's rampage.

So why should you?

The decision to carry more or less should not be based on a fairly safe area until you demonstrate to me that fights in those are less intense.

If you don't think the area is safe - why are you going there unless you are the law or a zombie hunter?

Carrying more or less is based on convenience and the odds that you will face a low intense fighter who might be deterred. But high intense fights in nice mall or nice school seem to be occurring (rarely).
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Old November 22, 2013, 02:20 AM   #131
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Really a good thread with plenty of good points of view.

For me, 5 rounds of .357 is not enough to feel comfortable. I also no longer EDC a 1911 because of the limited mag capacity. I would rather have than want, so that means a minimum of 11 rounds of .357sig in my G33 with a 10 round back up. That's the lightest I am, it goes up from there.
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Old November 22, 2013, 11:08 AM   #132
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^ I'm going to assume you're somewhere where American ways are withering away slowly.

With that asked. If I was somewhere like that, I would still carry 9mm. I hear a lot of people say they're move to .45 instead.
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Old November 23, 2013, 02:53 AM   #133
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I'm in S. Ca, I guess it's safe to say I am carrying a 9mm, just a very hot one. LoL
My go to round is a 10mm in a G29 sf platform. Unfortunately, in the dead of summer, I can't hide it very well in shorts and a t-shirt. I seriously hope I'm never in the position to have to shoot someone in self defense. But, if someone is damn set on putting me there, I want the most gun and capacity I can shoot well.
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Old November 23, 2013, 03:39 AM   #134
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Here's the deal with the fairly safe area cliche.

If a gun fight starts, it is no longer a fairly safe area. Thus, do criminals or terrorists or rampage nutsos carry less firepower because they are going to do evil in a fairly safe area.

Sandy Hook was a fairly safe area - did that killer carry less? My, my - I think I will only carry my J frame on today's rampage.

So why should you?

The decision to carry more or less should not be based on a fairly safe area until you demonstrate to me that fights in those are less intense.

If you don't think the area is safe - why are you going there unless you are the law or a zombie hunter?

Carrying more or less is based on convenience and the odds that you will face a low intense fighter who might be deterred. But high intense fights in nice mall or nice school seem to be occurring (rarely).
Wow, extremely well put Glenn Meyer.

Other examples of 'nice areas' include the CT upscale neighborhood where two tyrants stalked a Doctors wife and daughters back to their home, broke in, beat the husband to near death, then raped and murdered the wife and daughters and then burned down the home. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshir...vasion_murders

Or upscale Columbine highschool in Littleton Colorado, a very nice area.

Or Virginia Tech college, a nice school.

Tons of violent crime occurs in 'nice' areas.

Bottom line, violence can happen anytime, to anyone, for nearly any reason.

Choose to be adequately prepared, or don't.

I also agree with the post that says it's a combination of mindset, skillset, and hardware.
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Old November 23, 2013, 05:58 AM   #135
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Bad things can happen in "nice" areas.
On the flip side, you can spend a lot of time in "bad" areas and have nothing happen.
Either way, where you go shouldn't dictate what you carry. If you think you specifically need "more gun" to go somewhere, it's probably a better idea to go somewhere else.
You should carry the "most gun" you can comfortably and conveniently carry all the time, because you never really know when or what trouble's going to find you. If that's a 5 shot j-frame, you still have more gun that you're likely to need. But, it's certainly possible you'd wish you had more rounds.

Personally, I usually carry a sp101, or an XDS (or I will when it comes back). Neither one has great capacity. But I didn't choose them based on the fact that I live in a "nice" area, I chose them based on the fact that I can carry them very comfortably whether I'm chasing my kid, sitting on the couch, or climbing a tree to retrieve my RC airplane.
If I ever find a holster that makes my Glock 19 work for me, I'll probably start carrying that on a more regular basis.

You never know how many rounds is going to be "enough". Statistically, 0 is enough for most of us most days. But carrying a gun - like wearing a seat belt - isn't about preventing the probable. It's about preventing the possible.

So, I guess my answer to the OP question would be "as many as you can comfortably/conveniently carry".
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Old November 23, 2013, 06:32 AM   #136
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dayman.
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If I ever find a holster that makes my Glock 19 work for me, I'll probably start carrying that on a more regular basis.
Tried to put my holster as an attachment, did not work!

But it is a Glock Factory cheap plastic (Polymer) one. You have to trim it a bit, and cut the loops to make the angle as straight up and down as possible.

I carry every day, you don't feel it! Sits a bit behind the hip bone.

The Glock 19 4th Gen. sits all day, and every day in it.
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Old November 23, 2013, 07:42 AM   #137
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How many shots is enough

Also check out PHLster.com they make an awesome IWB that I've been using for appendix style carry for several months and I find it's perfect.
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Old November 25, 2013, 10:28 AM   #138
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I think the average number of rounds fired in self defense is two.

I carry an XDs (45) with 5+1 and an extra mag with 7. Pretty sure that in 99% of cases that would be enough to either stop an attack or extricate myself from a bad situation.
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Old November 25, 2013, 10:39 AM   #139
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::facepalm::

Watch this.
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Old November 25, 2013, 11:30 AM   #140
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If there are a million DGUs a year then 1%

equals 1000000 X .01 = 10000 DGUS out of ammo.

Once again - the issue is whether you plan on the mean or the extreme.

And then - what is the cut off for the extreme.

Is it the .10 level = two muggers

.05 = Columbine

.01 = Mumbai

.001 = Zombies rise.
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Old November 25, 2013, 11:47 AM   #141
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How many shots is enough

Thanks for the vids Constantine. My 87 yo mother went Biden on a shady teenager that wouldn't leave her see through security door. She kept telling him NO Go away, he kept insisting just open the door. She retrieved a single shot 12 ga Ithaca from wall rack and he got the message then real clear. Ole Joe would have proud. I know I was
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Old December 2, 2013, 06:41 PM   #142
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re:How many shots is enough

All the reports I have read, have averaged "3", so I add one more, for Mr. Murphy, to a total of four. Remember, Jack Ruby, as the AGGRESSOR, did it in one.

When I am without the house, a j-frame, and a speed strip or two, loaded "2" space "2", since you can load in pairs, quicker than getting that 5th one in right. Quicker to get back on target, too.

When I am within the house, a nice Model 15, and either Safari 3's or Jetloaders.
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Old December 2, 2013, 07:31 PM   #143
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How many shots is enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFsc616171 View Post
All the reports I have read, have averaged "3", so I add one more, for Mr. Murphy, ...
Averages are funny things. Any given gunfight could be resolved in 0 shots, or 25.
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Old December 2, 2013, 08:03 PM   #144
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All the reports I have read, have averaged "3", so I add one more, for Mr. Murphy, to a total of four. Remember, Jack Ruby, as the AGGRESSOR, did it in one.
Really?

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/

http://www.theppsc.org/Archives/DF_A...nian_Study.htm

And this is where the rule of 3 comes from.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...niously-killed

Those are the gunfights that cops lost.

You say but wait..... That has nothing to do with CCW! Well, the same felon that shoots it out with the police is the same felon you are standing in line with. There is no data base for civilian shootings.
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Old December 3, 2013, 10:36 AM   #145
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When I teach statistics - as I have for many years, with a book and major web site published - I teach in descriptive statistics that you have to consider the central tendency and distribution characteristics.

All the talk of averages alone clearly indicates a lack of understanding of such concepts.

Then tie that to a risk level cut off based on the variability measures.
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Old December 3, 2013, 03:23 PM   #146
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Then tie that to a risk level cut off based on the variability measures.
Would a box and whisker plot show a better range of information to base a decision on? Or maybe graph a bell curve and look at two standard deviations on each side?
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Old December 3, 2013, 03:43 PM   #147
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How many shots is enough
Maybe one, maybe there aren't enough. I carry seven but pray I don't have to use even one.
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Old December 3, 2013, 05:19 PM   #148
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All the reports I have read, have averaged "3", so I add one more, for Mr. Murphy, to a total of four. Remember, Jack Ruby, as the AGGRESSOR, did it in one.
Jack Ruby shot Oswald - a handcuffed man not expecting to be shot, standing practically still - at point blank range.

Hardly a self-defense comparison.
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Old December 3, 2013, 05:39 PM   #149
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How many shots is enough
Enough for what? If the O/P is asking how much ammo I carry for my CCW the answer is 6 .357 Magnum rounds loaded, along with1 full reload on my person. I also keep two full reloads in the car.
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Old December 3, 2013, 06:32 PM   #150
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old bear, you understood exactly, just wanting to know what you carry, thus what you consider to be enough. Thanks
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