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Old November 17, 2013, 10:37 PM   #101
Nanuk
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My Galco shoulder holster holds a Glock on one side and 2 extra mags on the other and is very comfortable and quite concealable. Then I throw in a 9mm Shield as a BUG and an extra mag for that.

Doctrine was that you carried at least 2 reloads for your gun. Before I retired I carried significantly more ammo plus an AR with 7 mags on duty.

It is all based on your perception of what is needed based on your experience and training. I would rather have and not need than need and not have. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who said "Few men will ever need a gun, but those who do will need it very, very, badly".
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Old November 17, 2013, 11:13 PM   #102
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I've always said that it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I normally carry 2 loaded mags(7 + 7 = 14), and an extra box(50) somewhere, just in case. There's a lot to be said for comfort of carry, yet it's more comforting knowing that I have some extra ammo stashed somewhere if I need it.
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Old November 18, 2013, 04:45 AM   #103
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Quote:
posted by 8bit:

This is one of those questions that's impossible to answer. Maybe 1 is enough. Maybe 20 is not enough. I think it all boils down to what you are feel safe and are comfortable with.
# 1 answer and I agree.
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Old November 18, 2013, 05:13 AM   #104
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I would add that there is likely a psychological comfort to having 'enough' rounds to 'not enough' for a situation, and that may factor in your strategy and tactic at the moment.

Consider this scenario. Honestly.

You got home from work later than expected, and rushed straight home for personal reasons. You've just finished chores and packing for your road trip. You're just stepping out to gas up the car and get some coffee creamer or other last minute items at midnight so you can get an early start on your road trip the next day. The gas-n-go is just a few miles away off the interstate. The trip should take 15 minutes, but worth it now to beat the rush in the morning.

You pump your gas and pop in to get supplies. As you are in the back of this medium size convenience store, by the coolers, you see a pregnant woman selecting a gallon of milk from the cooler. It's at that time, you hear the door buzzer followed by some commotion; shouting, and the distinct racking of a pump shotgun. You duck down and can clearly see in the convex ceiling mirror AT LEAST two gang looking young men near the front of the store. One has revolver pointed at the cashier who is frantically trying to open the register. The other thug is walking toward the back of the store with the pump shotgun. The woman is whimpering uncontrollably.

You've been in this store before, and you know that the only exit is several isles over and would be near suicidal to attempt, and you'd be leaving this female behind in rushing for it. She's already in a mild panic and would be impossible to make any coordinated effort with this person.

You have about 5 seconds to figure out your plan before you're 'discovered' by the thug with the shotgun. What will happen if you are discovered? Assault and robbery for sure. Maybe your gun will be discovered? Execution? Worse for the woman? What are you going to do? This isn't about being a 'hero,' but this could be about pure survival.

You are carrying a 5 shot .357 magnum snubnose, which you are proficient with. You have no reloads.

Maybe there's a 3rd guy outside? A lookout? Driver?

Do you flee? Fight? Open fire on one of them for surprise? Open fire on both instantly? Beg for your life?

Go.

NOW- does your decision change if you have a different firearm? Say a pistol with 20 rounds of 9mm? 15 rounds of .40? Or a pistol with 8 rounds of .45? Do you carry a reload? Do you account for gun malfunctions? Misses? Ineffective hits? How about no gun?

Now, perhaps 5 rounds is 'enough' for this scenario. Perhaps not. But you can easily see how only having 5 shots would definitely influence your decision on your tactics, shot distribution, etc. For instance, if you have only 5 shots, you might only put 2 in the closer thug, keeping the 3 remaining for the longer harder shot. You can't guarantee the shotgun works or is loaded, if you can confiscate it. And a scatter gun may not be the best for this scenario because you could accidently hit the clerk. Your OPTIONS open up if you have say 15 rounds of .40 cal, and another mag of 15 rounds on your hip. You might stop the shotgun threat with several shots, and then move on immediately to the guy at the front of the store with several shots, keeping 5 in the mag, and then do a quick mag change and train on the front door....

So, maybe with only 5 rounds, you decide not to engage and roll the dice with being taken captive vs. going on the offensive with 30 rounds at your disposal.
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Last edited by leadcounsel; November 18, 2013 at 05:33 AM.
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Old November 18, 2013, 10:10 AM   #105
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Well lead counsel, if it was me going out that late at night for gas, it would be a 6-shot 44 magnum snubby (OWB), a 13-shot 40 cal semi (Shoulder) and a 5-shot 44 spl (Ankle). 24 rds, no reloads.

If the shotgun is about to discover me, I have few good options: the 44 mag comes out first, throws a 3 foot flame (which should discourage even the most ardent Miami crackhead) and I can only hope that the 40-lb bags of kitty litter that I am hiding behind catch the shotgun pellets, and all my shots hit the perps.

How many shots is enough? 20 should do. More is better.

Best to you.
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Old November 18, 2013, 01:26 PM   #106
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Shoot the shotgun wielding person and grab his gun?
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Old November 18, 2013, 02:55 PM   #107
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Well, the simple answer of course, remains that "It depends."

But I will add to leadcounsel's scenario by saying that no one ever thought in the middle of a Bad Day that gosh, it's a good thing I didn't bring more ammunition.
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Old November 18, 2013, 03:01 PM   #108
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Armchair quarterbacking now?
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Old November 18, 2013, 03:12 PM   #109
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Quote:
Posted by JohnKSa: So why doesn't reality match the calculations? Simple--the prospect of being ventilated is a very effective means of rearranging an attacker's motives in most cases. So actually disabling the attacker isn't often required.

What that means is that it is not possible to successfully argue against the premise that having a few rounds will often be sufficient for self-defense based on real-world self-defense data. It is often sufficient.
Another reason is that the calculations presumed that the defender will shoot at the first attacker only until two hits have been achieved. I think it not unlikely that in a "Tueller like" attack, the defender may end up shooting the first attacker four or five times. For that reason, I think the analysis may well be optimistic.

Yes, the second assailant may "often" cease and desist. Does one want to bank on that? Consider that for him to do so, he will have to...
  • Notice that his accomplice has been hit, recognizing that the gunfire came from the defender and not from his accomplice
  • Be in a position in which he thinks that turning and running is safer than trying to stop the defender from shooting him
  • Not believe that, without the money and car of the defender, he has no realistic chance of escape

I would not bet on it.
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Old November 18, 2013, 03:29 PM   #110
Brian Pfleuger
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How many shots is enough

I think threads on this topic generate more cliches than any other.

Scenarios are meaningless. Inventions of the imagination, created specifically and solely to prove the point of the imaginer.

Prepare for whatever you like. There's always a scenario that your imagination doesn't cover and for which someone who is "more prepared" than you will call you a fool for not recognizing all the while a "less prepared" person will call you paranoid.

Both sides will sling cliches and back at them. A lot of silliness.
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Old November 18, 2013, 04:24 PM   #111
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Quote:
Scenarios are meaningless
I respectfully disagree. I've presented a quite common scenario. Convenience stores are dangerous places, subject to robbery. Robberies often involve 2+ armed assailants.

We learn from thinking about what you would do from scenarios. Heck, it's how law enforcement and military learn - setting up a scenario and role playing it or acting it out or at least critically thinking about your options.

This isn't a 'far fetched' situation.

There are many scenarios, all common, in which you would be facing multiple armed assailants and only having 1.7, or 5, or even 10 rounds is woefully inadequate.
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Last edited by leadcounsel; November 18, 2013 at 04:32 PM.
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Old November 18, 2013, 07:09 PM   #112
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How many shots is enough

If I understand Brian correctly, his point is not actually that scenarios are strictly without value. I think he's making a general statement about how they are frequently engineered to support specific notions. That is a fair assessment of the course of these conversations.

I would assume that we would all be in agreement that evaluating or thinking through realistic scenarios can be a valuable practice for learning.
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Old November 18, 2013, 07:40 PM   #113
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How many shots is enough

Rabbit out of the hat scenarios are pointless and Brian's post is spot on.

Want to see how you'd do in a scenario? Train for it. Even then you're not guaranteed to succeed in it in real time unless you trained for the exact same scenario and are encountering it piece by piece as you trained for it, highly unlikely. Every. Single. Scenario. Is different.
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Old November 18, 2013, 07:52 PM   #114
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Quote:
Rabbit out of the hat scenarios are pointless and Brian's post is spot on.
Okay, here's a different scenario then.

You're sitting on your couch and nothing happens. No gun was needed. I guess zero bullets is the answer.

Sheesh...

I never understand why people enter these conversations, and then say that someone else's scenario, a realistic one at that, is without merit...

The scenario presented may never happen to anyone here. But it is designed to make people consider that perhaps carrying a bullet in your pocket like Barney Fife is inadequate.
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Old November 18, 2013, 08:04 PM   #115
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Scenarios are meaningless. Inventions of the imagination, created specifically and solely to prove the point of the imaginer.
I believe Lance Thomas would disagree with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w
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Old November 18, 2013, 08:42 PM   #116
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This shop keeper was lucky to manage to mount a successful defense against 2 armed men (one did not draw) with 5 rounds in a handgun, but he was empty standing there and didn't know it, nor did he have a reload handy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV4Xqt62pf8

4 people home invasion with long guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0

A quick internet search will show the speed and violence of attacks.
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Old November 18, 2013, 09:22 PM   #117
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How many shots is enough

Scenarios are useless in proving a point because they're imaginary and invented TO prove the point. I can prove any point with an imaginary scenario. This isn't a training question, it's a choice question.

Consider:
1)I don't carry a gun because 99.5% of Americans will live their lives and die of heart disease, or cancer, and never need a gun.

2)I carry a gun because I might need one.

3)I carry a gun, 3 reloads, a BUG and 3 reloads for it, because I might need them.

4)I carry 2 full-size handguns, 3 BUGS, 3 reloads for each, 2 rifles in my car, 10 loaded mags for each and a shotgun with a case of slugs a case of buck shot and a case of turkey loads, cuz, hey you never know.

Why are scenarios useless? Because I could invent a scenario to justify any of those choices, even one with a conveniently placed damsel in distress, who's pregnant even, that no blue-blooded American boy could abandon. It's irrelevant.

In spite of the protests, it's all about our own perception of the odds. It prompts the cliche; It's the stakes! Not the odds!; to which I say Bull!

The stakes are the same for a whole variety of possibilities that we ignore, including things with much higher odds. This includes the guy who carries no gun, 2 guns, or 12 guns. There are still scenarios I could invent that show how dismally unprepared any of them are, no matter what. There are things that have happened in this country where you'd better be a SEAL Team 6 member AND have your whole dang squad with you. So what? We going to start carrying for that? There's certainly scenarios that can "justify" it.

Mainly, it's a matter of our personal interest. It's not the stakes, it's not the odds, it's interest.

Then we want to justify our choices and everybody who's less prepared is a naive fool and anybody more prepared is a paranoid loon.

Really, it's just personal choice.

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; November 19, 2013 at 09:36 AM.
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Old November 18, 2013, 11:01 PM   #118
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As the O.P. of this thread, I have to agree with Brian Pfleuger. My intent was only curiosity about what others carried and their thought process as to why. I wasn't interested in starting a chest thumping contest for people trying to prove that their school of thought is the only right one.
I was beginning to think that perhaps my choice of a couple of 5 shot 38's and a speedloader or two was getting behind the times. So, I spent Saturday at the range firing about 550 rounds through a couple of borrowed automatics and my 38's. It reminded me pretty quickly of why I chose to carry a snubby all those years ago. Snubbies may not be right for you, but they are what works for me. I may not have enough firepower for every possibility, but I will just have to risk it as I am going to have to stick with what works best for me for the majority of situations.
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Old November 18, 2013, 11:41 PM   #119
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I carried a 5 shot .38 until I saw John's analysis. That did it for me.

Well, not quite. First, I had to have someone point out to me that my reasoning, which had been based on my assessment that the likelihood that I would ever have to use the gun in the first place was remote at best, was irrelevant. I should have been considering the conditional probability. I should have been assessing what I wanted on hand in the event that I did in fact have to use the firearm.

I then considered the following:
  • How many shots would I likely fire at a charging attacker? I think maybe three or four. It would likely happen very quickly indeed, under great pressure. I had not thought that one through until after I had taken a defensive pistol shooting course. I have not taken any FoF training or training involving rapidly moving targets.
  • What about a second accomplice? That's not unlikely, around here. Might shooting be necessary? That's anybody's guess. I would like to err on the side of caution.
  • Do I want to end up with an empty gun? No.

It became a simple risk management problem. Not everyone will come up with the same conclusion. Here are some thoughts:
  • Five rounds could well prove very inadequate in the event that two determined attackers are encountered.
  • Six would be better, and seven, better still.
  • Beyond some point, maybe around eight or ten, more capacity will likely contribute very little, if anything, to one's security.
  • Reloads, except perhaps for New York reloads, are probably not very effective for risk mitigation.

I'm not trying to substantiate a number; I'm simply trying to explain my thought process.

And that did lead to changing what had been a preconceived notion.

BTW, I carry eight or ten. I would not expect to fire that many, but I do like the idea of a reserve.
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Old November 18, 2013, 11:54 PM   #120
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My 9mm compact holds 12+1 and my 380 auto holds 6+1. I carry the 9c about 70 percent of the time. Since I've never had to use either I'm not sure how many is enough. I hope I have enough if need though.
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Old November 19, 2013, 01:10 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wreck-n-Crew
Quote:
It is a pretty well established fact that the vast majority of defensive uses of handguns take place at relatively short distances,

Not all?
OK, every legally justified non-LEO defensive shooting that I'm aware in modern history of has taken place at short range. That being said, I'm sure that someone can come up with an instance of a legally justified non-LEO shooting at 25+ yards that I've not heard of, hence my reluctance to deal in absolutes.

Quote:
Quote:
So, the $64,000 question seems to be how fast can you draw your gun and fire with a sufficient degree of accuracy against multiple determined attackers? Speaking for myself, I'm realistic enough about my skill level to realize that I cannot draw and fire more than a few rounds in the few seconds I'll have if attacked regardless of what type of handgun I'm using and I doubt that very many people could do much better. Therefore, I arrive at my previous assertion that I'm far more likely to run out of time and distance than ammunition.

If you say "odds are" I will leave you with your odds, but give me some meat with the potatoes when making an argument other than your perception of other peoples ability on average compared to yours. A gun in the hand can be used even if they make contact. Even if bigger and stronger. Advanced training is always an option.
OK, exactly how fast can you draw your gun from concealment and fire at least five rounds at no less than two targets while hitting each target at least once? Have you had the advanced training of which you speak? How many other people do you know that have had such training? You're missing my point here, I'm not talking about what is theoretically possible for someone who has had advanced training (most people haven't) and who cannot draw and fire more than 5 accurate shots in 2-3 seconds (most people can't). If you can do those things, then by all means carry lots of ammo, but in that case I'd hardly classify you as average.

Quote:
Quote:
So, It seems to me that one's two best hopes for surviving an attack from multiple aggressors are as follows: either the gun's mere presence or first few rounds fired causes the aggressors to re-evaluate their life choices and seek their goals elsewhere or the defender's fire can cause the aggressors to pause, duck, or seek cover thus buying the defender enough time and distance to remove himself/herself from the situation. I honestly don't see more than 5-10 shots being necessary to accomplish either of those outcomes and if one of those two can't be accomplished, well most people are probably sorry out of luck anyway. Anyone who thinks that simply blazing away like some sort of action movie hero will save them if confronted by multiple determined attackers isn't being realistic and I hope, for their sake, that such a situation never presents itself.

A whole lot of big hope and assumptions. I respectfully disagree on the basis of experience and training with this statement in it's entirety. In reality if you ever need your firearm, you won't get to choose the scenario for which it is needed.
No, you don't get to choose the scenario. However, you cannot adequately prepare yourself for every possible scenario. It seems fairly obvious to me that the gun which would be the best choice if confronted by 5 average sized people with determined, but otherwise normal states of mind at moderate range would be different than the best choice if confronted by one exceedingly large individual who is under the influence of exotic chemical as very short range. I could likely, if I put my mind to it, come up with ten different scenarios which would be best handled with ten different guns, but since I cannot practically carry ten handguns on my person at all times it would be a pointless exercise. Instead, I've examined my own lifestyle and chosen what will best meet the threats that I'm most likely to face. I'm not trying to tell you that you're foolish or paranoid for not making the same choices as me because I don't know you or what you're most likely to face. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't assume that I'm foolish or naive for making a different choice than you.

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnKSa
If your general philosophy is that you want to try to prepare for the (admittedly unlikely) possibility of having to physically disable an attacker with a handgun, then capacity is a real concern. I would say that an even more critical need for that person is some good training. Especially when faced with more than one determined attacker, you probably won't survive long enough to use all your ammunition if capacity is all you have in your "toolbag".
That's a very succinct and well-worded synopsis. If one is faced with multiple armed attackers willing to risk being shot to accomplish their goal, capacity is not at the head of the list of things that will help them survive.

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Pfleuger
Scenarios are meaningless. Inventions of the imagination, created specifically and solely to prove the point of the imaginer.

Prepare for whatever you like. There's always a scenario that your imagination doesn't cover and for which someone who is "more prepared" than you will call you a fool for not recognizing all the while a "less prepared" person will call you paranoid.
Another excellent point. As I mentioned before, I could come up with ten different scenarios in which ten different guns would be best suited, but that's a pointless exercise since I'm not going to be carrying ten guns. Without knowing some rather intimate personal information, there is simply no way that one person can tell another what the best gun to carry is.
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Old November 19, 2013, 02:18 AM   #122
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I carry 8 in my .45, with a backup mag(8 rd) in my pocket. To me, for EDC, that is enough. Honestly, i doubt i would ever be in a situation where i would have time, or the need to reload. BUT having that extra mag in my back pocket makes me feel a little better.
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Old November 19, 2013, 04:48 PM   #123
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I like 15 rounds of 9mm in my Cougar but I'd feel pretty good with 10 or more of anything over .380acp.

That said, my Cougar is often to big to carry so I make do with 8 rounds of .380 in the Bersa Thunder. Not what I consider the ideal solution but I still feel comfortable with that.

It's a decent round, in a reliable gun, that shoots accurately.
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Old November 19, 2013, 05:39 PM   #124
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How many shots is enough

One is enough... 7 or 8 is plenty for me
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Old November 19, 2013, 06:43 PM   #125
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Quote:
Posted by Webleymkv: OK, exactly how fast can you draw your gun from concealment and fire at least five rounds at no less than two targets while hitting each target at least once? Have you had the advanced training of which you speak?
That's the key question for anyone who carries a gun for defensive purposes, but it applies regardless of whether one carries five or eight rounds.
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