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Old November 10, 2013, 09:15 PM   #1
monkeyfist
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How critical is an exact gun title?

Just bought a Smith and Wesson M&P 22LR a few days ago, but I just noticed the title says Walther as the manufacturer. Damn I should've checked it over more closely when I bought it!

How critical is this? Does it matter?
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Old November 10, 2013, 09:31 PM   #2
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Do you live in some state where such information is some manner of a requirement? Most of us don't. The pistol could say "Chevrolet" on the side and it wouldn't truly matter to anyone.

If you live in some place where your handgun is registered with your state of residence and they have it's serial number recorded and it's associated with your name & address, then you may wish to contact whatever State Agency is responsible for that nonsense and be sure they know exactly what it is.
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Old November 10, 2013, 09:37 PM   #3
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Never heard of a gun "title". Not sure what you are talking about???
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Old November 10, 2013, 10:04 PM   #4
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I live in CT. The "title" is a "sale or transfer of all firearms". I have no idea if it makes a bit of difference and the serial number matches up. I just don't want any problems if for some reason I ever decide to sell this gun.

Don't you guys need proof of ownership?
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Old November 10, 2013, 10:22 PM   #5
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Most states don't require any proof of ownership of a gun. Even many of those with registration requirements don't require that the owner have or be able to produce proof of registration in order to own or sell the gun.

But back to the initial question. If the gun says Smith & Wesson, that should be fine for registration/title purposes, even though the gun might have been made by someone else or even be marked "Mfg by XYZ Corp." or something like that. It is an S&W model and has an S&W model name/number and can be traced through S&W. It is the same as when Colt was having guns made for it in Spain; they were Colt guns, cataloged by Colt, sold as Colts and carried that way in dealer books.

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Old November 10, 2013, 10:40 PM   #6
Sevens
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Quote:
Don't you guys need proof of ownership?
We do not.
I do have proof of ownership -- it's here! One on my belt. Few up in the safe. Mine, all mine!
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Old November 10, 2013, 10:56 PM   #7
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Don't you guys need proof of ownership?
I surely hope not ....cleaned up the reloading room and found a couple I'd forgotten about .......

If I can't keep track of 'em ...... howinthesamhellisthe.govgonnadoit?
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Old November 10, 2013, 11:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyfist
Just bought a Smith and Wesson M&P 22LR a few days ago, but I just noticed the title says Walther as the manufacturer. Damn I should've checked it over more closely when I bought it!
"Title"?

I've never heard of a title fior a firearm. Bill-of-sale, receipt, sure ... title? Nope.

That said, the .22 M&P is made for S&W by Walther. However, IMHO the maker should be listed on paperwork the same as what it says on the side of the firearm, so if it says S&W, the "title" should say S&W. If the rollmark says Walther, the "title" should say Walther.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyfist
I live in CT. The "title" is a "sale or transfer of all firearms". I have no idea if it makes a bit of difference and the serial number matches up. I just don't want any problems if for some reason I ever decide to sell this gun.
That form is not a title. That form is a report to the CT State Police and to your local PD that you purchased a firearm. The maker listed on that form should be the same as the maker listed on the box and on the side of the firearm.

This form, right? http://www.ct.gov/despp/lib/despp/sl...ms/dps-3-c.pdf
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Old November 10, 2013, 11:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyfist
Don't you guys need proof of ownership?
Nope. I've never needed any proof of ownership for any guns I've owned, past or present. I bought them legally, I own them legally, and I'm legally allowed to possess firearms. That's all I need and all anyone should need.
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Old November 11, 2013, 06:17 PM   #10
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Thank you all. The people at Cabela's - both times I bought a firearm there- called it a "title".

So, Aguila Blanca, are you saying I should get the form changed to Smith and Wesson? Is it important to do so?
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Old November 11, 2013, 06:57 PM   #11
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"

"... are you saying I should get the form changed to Smith and Wesson? Is it important to do so?"

None of us know what would be important in the People's Republic of Connetecutt but you can be pretty sure any state with gun "titles" is quite likely to void your title on any technicality the local cops can find or manufacture and take your gun away. Heck, in the still relitively free states we hardly have to "prove" ownership of anything but motor vehicles.

I would suggest a change of residence. You might be delighted to live in a state that isn't totally dominated by kindly liberals determined to "help the little people" live safely in the luving arms of gubbermint.
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Old November 11, 2013, 07:13 PM   #12
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That's actually farly common to for a gun manufacturer have, under license, another company manufacture a particular model,

As for some 1911 pistols, here is short list:

STI has an agreement with Armsco to build the frame/slide/barrel of their Spartan Models

Armscor also make the Cimarron 1911s.

American Tactical Imports has their 1911s manufactured by SAM (Shooters Arms Manufacturing)

Umarex has Tisas build their 1911 Regent Models

Sig Sauer has GSG manufacture their 1911 22lr.

These are the ones I can think of now.
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Old November 11, 2013, 07:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyfist
So, Aguila Blanca, are you saying I should get the form changed to Smith and Wesson? Is it important to do so?
I have no idea if it's important to get it changed. You haven't yet answered the question as to who is listed on the box and on the side of the gun as the manufacturer. The registration (that's really what it is) should reflect the correct manufacturer -- which is NOT Smith & Wesson. But I don't know how the gun is marked.

Carl Walther makes just about all the .22LR replicas of contemporary handguns (except the GSG 1911-22), irrespective of who makes the centerfire bigger brother. These rimfire clones are made by Walther under license from the makers of the centerfire pistols they resemble. Depending on the licensing agreement, I suppose it's possible that someone other than Walther might be considered the "maker" -- but I don't know.

For example: Colt makes 1911s (duh!). Colt stopped making the Colt Service Ace a long time ago but, a couple of years ago, Umarex USA introduced a trio of Colt-branded 1911 rimfire pistols -- made in Germany by Carl Walther, for Umarex USA, under license from Colt. So what is it? Is it a Colt, a Umarex, or a Walther?

I found a test review on-line with a close-up photo of the right side of one of the Colt/Walther/Umarex 1911-22s. The billboard on the slide says "Colt," but that's not the legal information. The legal information is what's engraved or rollmarked into the receiver, near the serial number. If we look at the "Colt," we can see (disappearing off the screen to the left) that it says
Umarex USA Fort Smith / AR
Made by Carl Walther
Germany


So ... it's NOT a Colt, and it's not a Umarex, it's a Walther. If it were sold in Connecticut, the State Police registration form should indicate Walther (or Carl Walther) as the manufacturer.

Now ... what does your gun say?
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Old November 11, 2013, 08:29 PM   #14
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Be thankful Walther made that .22; they make some of the best
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Old November 11, 2013, 08:36 PM   #15
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BigD_in_FL Be thankful Walther made that .22; they make some of the best
Uhh................not lately.
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Old November 11, 2013, 08:44 PM   #16
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true, not this year...........I had a few from years ago in various cartridges that were scary accurate
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Old November 11, 2013, 08:44 PM   #17
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Its Umarex made gun, they own Walther.

They use the name 'carl walther' on their rimfire imports. I'd assume to keep them from mixing it up with Airsoft products and to use the Walther name.

Its not made @ the Walther factory and does not have the Ulm proof mark. Its made at the Umarex factory and has the Köln proof. Same place the P22, SP22 the new ppk .22 and the M&P 22 for S&W are all made.
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Old November 11, 2013, 08:53 PM   #18
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There is one area where an error could cause problems, and that is in German pistols, particularly with Lugers and P.38's.

Serial numbers started with 1 on 1 January each year, ran to 9999, then a suffix letter was added. So 1-9999, 1a to 9999a, 1b to 9999b, and so on. And that was for each maker.

So a full and unique description of a Luger P.08 would be (for example) "Luger P.08, made by code "byf" (Mauser), dated 1942, serial number 1234e." Some dealers and others recording pistol information will omit the suffix letter, or the date, or the maker. If any of the information is not present, the identification is not unique.

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Old November 12, 2013, 12:32 PM   #19
lee n. field
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Quote:
Just bought a Smith and Wesson M&P 22LR a few days ago, but I just noticed the title says Walther as the manufacturer. Damn I should've checked it over more closely when I bought it!

How critical is this?
It's not. S&W put its name on some imported Walther products. My understanding is that corporate relationship is no more.

Quote:
Does it matter?
No. Should it? Walther is a quality manufacturer.
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Old November 12, 2013, 05:59 PM   #20
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"None of us know what would be important in the People's Republic of Connetecutt but you can be pretty sure any state with gun "titles" is quite likely to void your title on any technicality the local cops can find or manufacture and take your gun away. Heck, in the still relitively free states we hardly have to "prove" ownership of anything but motor vehicles.

I would suggest a change of residence. You might be delighted to live in a state that isn't totally dominated by kindly liberals determined to "help the little people" live safely in the luving arms of gubbermint."

Thank you wncchester, but I didn't ask for your political stance, just the facts concerning proof of ownership and whether I needed to worry that the proof isn't accurate or whether it is really a non-issue.



"No. Should it? Walther is a quality manufacturer." - lee n. field: I'm not questioning the quality of the gun - though I did just break the takedown lever because it was all but impossible to pull it out.



"You haven't yet answered the question as to who is listed on the box and on the side of the gun as the manufacturer." - It says Smith and Wesson on the gun, thus my original question.
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Old November 12, 2013, 09:29 PM   #21
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Sigh...
I miss the days when a Colt was a Colt..A Smith & Wesson was always a S&W.....
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Old November 12, 2013, 10:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
"You haven't yet answered the question as to who is listed on the box and on the side of the gun as the manufacturer." - It says Smith and Wesson on the gun, thus my original question.
If it says Smith & Wesson, then the form should have said Smith & Wesson. Yes, you should get it corrected. But I don't think it does.

Are you looking at the actual makers information, or are you looking at the billboard? It says Smith & Wesson on the left side, but doesn't the right side (near the serial number, where I told you to look) say Carl Walther / Made in Germany?

Like this one I found on-line?



Or this one:

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Old November 13, 2013, 02:29 AM   #23
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That one looks like mine. I am in California and all I get here is basically just a receipt and a Dealer Record of Firearm Sale. On mine it is listed as Smith & Wesson. It came in a Smith & Wesson box. To be honest I didn't know it was made by Walther until after I got it home.
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Old November 13, 2013, 01:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Don't you guys need proof of ownership?
Here, when a gun is transferred to you, it's automatically put into the state police data base, so when a LEO runs your info he gets that information then and there, so they already know whether or not you own the gun.

You can't sell a gun directly to someone or buy one directly, you have to have it transferred by a FFL holder, and during that process they do a background check with the state police of you and the gun, your info(Name, Age,Sex,DOB,Physical Address, SSN, DLN) and the gun's info are stored in the state police data base at that time. So a simple request is all that is needed to determine ownership, no need for any kind of title.
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Old November 13, 2013, 05:02 PM   #25
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I would suggest a change of residence. You might be delighted to live in a state that isn't totally dominated by kindly liberals determined to "help the little people" live safely in the luving arms of gubbermint.
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