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Old November 5, 2013, 02:30 PM   #26
jimbob86
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The higher velocity round is much more forgiving to wind drift. The problem I run into with low velocity round that I usually do not encounter to nearly such an extent with the high velocity rounds is wind drift.
Brians point (made pretty well in his example) was the the difference in wind drift between the two bullets was only 3 1/2 inches ...... the heavier bullet is actually harder to push off course, but being slower, it has more time to be pushed ....

My point is that 3 1/2 inches is 3 1/2 inches ...... and the 7-08 drops almost 1/3 less at 400 ..... almost a foot is almost a foot . 7-08 shoots flatter than .308, all else being equal .....

The bullets he picked had very similar BC's .... the larger diameter one was 41gr (Sorry Bri- there is no 140 gr SST listed- it's 139gr) heavier .....
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Old November 5, 2013, 02:37 PM   #27
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Quote:
(Sorry Bri- there is no 140 gr SST listed- it's 139gr)
Bah. Close enough.
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Old November 5, 2013, 02:42 PM   #28
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And 3 1/2 more inches of wind drift is close enough .... as is more than a foot of drop ..... for you.
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Old November 5, 2013, 02:49 PM   #29
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Note also, that there's a unique history of cartridges based on the original .308 Win. case used in competition using shoulder fired rifles. Such stuff demands best accuracy along with low recoil for shootability plus wind bucking features.

The .308 was necked down to 28 caliber and the offspring named the 7-08, but it took a while before 28 caliber bullets could be made as precise as 30 caliber ones. When that finally happened, the 26 caliber ones were right on the heels of the 28 caliber ones and the 6.5x.308 became the next popular round (as the .260 Rem) for NRA shoulder fired match rifle competition. And the 6.5x.284 the round to beat for matches shot at 1000 yards by shoulder fired rifles.

The poor 28 caliber syndrome had a short life in competition, but a reasonably well lived one.

Then there's the issue for 22 caliber ones used; never cut the mustard good enough past 600 yards.
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Old November 5, 2013, 03:01 PM   #30
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So many ways to look at the rounds, but I will try to answer the OPs questions.

First, if you have a "plenty" of other hunting rounds, you might consider picking the one that is "furthest" away from what you have in the safe already. Or, one that shares the bullet diameter. That is just something to consider.

The .308 has a slight availability edge in terms of loaded ammo and in terms of a larger variety of bullets in the specialties than the 7mm.

I have a .308 with a 1:10 twist and I hit the 500m gong just a reliably with the 125s as the 168s as the 240s. But, 125s are not really my choice. Shorter bullets tend to be less accurate (sectional density). So a 130 7mm launched at the same velocity as a 125 .30 caliber bullet will go trans-sonic at a greater distance and have more accuracy "potential" than the .30 caliber.

Time of flight and the traverse shape factor have an affect on wind drift. So if you pick the "optimum" bullet for both, neither cartridge really has enough of a difference to matter much until you pass 500 yards or so, and even then it is not much.

The big difference to me comes in the terms of sales, and therefore price and packaging. Hornady, Sierra and Nosler all sell bulk pack .30 competition bullets making them cheaper to shoot than 7mm. Brass is also a bit cheaper for the .308. The .308 will gain you maybe 2K rounds on the barrel over the 7mm before you need to either re-barrel or rework the barrel, but I don't consider that enough to tip in one way or the other when that is like $5K of ammo or more. But, .308 barrels are more plentiful generally. I just picked up a blank for $40 to cut another barrel. I have never seen a 7mm blank that cheap.

To me, ballistics is a wash. Price, selection, availability tip towards the favor of the .308.

I sold my 7mm-08 because I can shoot my .260 and .308 for less coin, not because it is not a good round.

Recoil...my 82 pound 12 year old shoots the .308 into 1 MOA out to 300 yards and shot his first deer on Saturday with it. Recoil is as much about a properly fit stock as the minimal recoil energy between the 2 rounds.
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Old November 5, 2013, 05:45 PM   #31
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Hence, I say that the only thing that matters is practice
Ain't that the truth...
The hair-splitting that goes on here, and just about every precision-shooting forum about whether the .260 is "better" than the 6.5 Creed or 6.5 Swede or....
Not to mention the bullets.

For now, I can't dope the wind equal to what my rifle's capable of- so I try to concentrate on range time. Not to say you don't a "capable" setup, but there's no magic "bullet".
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Old November 5, 2013, 08:31 PM   #32
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7-08 is better on paper. I'd still prefer the 308. The 308 has been used for years. Others have already pretty much figured out what works, and how to get the most out of the round. No point in reinventing the wheel when you can learn from others
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Old November 5, 2013, 08:37 PM   #33
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IF you're looking for a range gun that you'll reload for, the choice is really a wash, unless you're looking for better SD from more readily available bullets. That's the 7mm's time to shine. For better versatility, the .308 wins, hands down. Either will work. During the shortage, however, 7mm bullets were slightly easier to find than .30s. Have you considered a 7mm-08 AI? Just a thought.
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Old November 5, 2013, 08:50 PM   #34
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If the two rounds were equal in terms of bullet selection, brass/bullet availability, etc. I would probably lean towards the 7mm-08.

But the massive selection of .308 bullets and top quality brass has me currently leaning in favor of the .308. Availability of .308 bullets is currently a good bit better than 7mm, partly because there are so many different .308 bullets out there. 7mm-08 brass is kind of scarce right now, sure I could resize .308 to work but that's something else that would have to be done that wouldn't be an issue with .308.

I think I'm getting closer to making my mind up.

Maybe
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Old November 5, 2013, 08:54 PM   #35
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Steve, 7mm bullets are every bit as "available" as .30 Cal bullets. I would argue that there is a better selection of both hunting and match bullets available in 7mm than .30. The brass issue is non-issue. 7-08 is a direct neck down from .308. If .308 Win brass is available, 7-08 is equally available.
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Old November 5, 2013, 08:58 PM   #36
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7mm-08 vs. .308: from a reloading standpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by reynolds357 View Post
Steve, 7mm bullets are every bit as "available" as .30 Cal bullets. I would argue that there is a better selection of both hunting and match bullets available in 7mm than .30. The brass issue is non-issue. 7-08 is a direct neck down from .308. If .308 Win brass is available, 7-08 is equally available.
My thoughts exactly.
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Old November 6, 2013, 05:34 PM   #37
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I'm still weighing the pro and cons of each. Who knows I may end up flipping a coin! This thread is very helpful and informative and I appreciate all the comments but I am no closer to making my mind up than I was when I started. Oh well

Quote:
First, if you have a "plenty" of other hunting rounds, you might consider picking the one that is "furthest" away from what you have in the safe already. Or, one that shares the bullet diameter. That is just something to consider.
I don't currently own a rifle with either a 7mm or .308 bore diameter. I have a .223, .220 swift, several in the 6mm/243 diameter, a .25-06, a 8x57js, and a .35 rem

So there's a gap between .257 and .323 that will be bridged with this rifle. I guess you could consider the 8x57 and the .308 to be "close" in a way, but the 8x57, a sporterized K98, is hardly a target rifle. It's a beater I primarily keep around for bear hunting or a "brush gun" for deer. A case could also be made for the .25-06 being similar to the 7mm-08, especially if I used 120 gr bullets in both. But I don't consider the .25-06 as a "target round" mainly because of the lack of match/high BC bullet selection in .257.
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Old November 7, 2013, 02:09 AM   #38
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Both are excellent so there is no wrong choice here. The main advantage that the .308 has or had, was cheap ammo that I'd never put in my bolt gun anyway. My shooting partner bought a Savage M11 in .308 last year and we had no problem finding a load it liked with a 150 gr. Ballistic Tip over Ramshot TAC. It has a 1 in 10" twist and the load produces about 2825 FPS, a realistic expectation of what the best factory loads will do.

My personal preference is the 7mm-08 and the 1 in 9.5" twist is the way I'd go. If you want screamers that are still capable on whitetail size game, you can do that with something like SIERRA's 120 gr. Pro Hunter. For Elk and even Moose it will stabilize bullets up to 175 grs. which are not difficult to load. In both calibers you can get into OACL problems with very heavy bullets for caliber that need to be loaded longer than what your rifle may be capable of. You're talking about readily available factory rifles and getting custom rifle responses. Powder burn rate for the 7mm-08 is slightly slower also meaning you have some great powders to choose from including one of the most popular rifle powders sold, IMR 4350. With powders slightly faster and slightly slower burning usable. One of the projects I'm very interested in is working with Ramshot Hunter. They only list data for 160 & 175 grs. at www.ramshot.com but their ballistician provided me with data for bullets down to 120 grs. For bullets 140 grs. and lighter, Big Game might have a little more performance potential, but Hunter is interesting in that it's a spherical (ball type) powder that is said to have temperature stability as good as extruded rifle powders that won't meter nearly as easily. For hunting game in the lower 48, there's nothing the .308 can do that the 7mm-08 can't and there's never been anything wrong about buying a .308 with a 1 in 10" twist.
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Old November 7, 2013, 08:27 AM   #39
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7mm-08 vs. .308: from a reloading standpoint

In regards to recoil, I find it interesting that the biggest gap between the two is with their respective most common mid-weight bullets. Whether or not there's enough difference to matter is a personal choice. For me, there is. 7-08 is right at the top limit of enjoyable shooting for me. .308 is just enough more to be too much.





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Old November 8, 2013, 08:29 PM   #40
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Well guys I finally made my decision. After trying like crazy to figure out whether I should go the 7mm-08 or .308 route, I settled on neither.

I ordered a Savage Axis stainless in .223 today

I decided that if I was going to have a dedicated range rifle it should be one I could shoot all day and not get a sore shoulder, and also it needed to be easy and inexpensive to load for. That checklist kept bringing me back to .223

While it won't be used for the same type of hunting as the 7-08 or .308, it will be just as good of a target round out to about 600 yards. Which is most likely as far as I'll ever shoot. If I want to go farther than that I'll spend more money and get something else. The Axis has a 1:9 twist which should work well with the 69 gr Sierra Matchking. I also have a ton of .223 brass and SR primers lying around since I already have a .223 (it has a 1:12 twist so I won't use the same bullets in the two rifles)

The first things I plan to do when I get the rifle are order a Boyd's stock and work on lightening up the trigger.

Thanks anyway for all the comments and helping me figure out what I wanted, or in this case didn't want
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Old November 8, 2013, 08:49 PM   #41
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Of course, there's always .243Win...
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Old November 8, 2013, 08:59 PM   #42
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I thought about the .243 too Brian but I already have too many (5 to be exact) .243/6mm's and I'd be afraid of burning the throat out of it too quickly at the range.

I'll save them for hunting

Maybe someday I'll rebarrel this rifle to 6mm/.223 or 6x45 or whatever you call it
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Old November 8, 2013, 10:46 PM   #43
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Since this thread has already gotten off topic, and since we are discussing 08 based cartridges; Why is the .260 Remington not more popular than it is? In my opinion, it is by far the best non dangerous big game cartridge on the 08 case.
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Old November 9, 2013, 10:35 AM   #44
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The popularity of the .260 has been exploding with the long-range crowd (I'm re-barreling both of my sons' rifles to it for Xmas) that handloads.

Ballistics are very similar (but, still a bit better) than the .08, but there's very little factory ammo on the shelves for the .260.

Doesn't help that Rem all but abandoned their own cartridge since it's development, and still hasn't gotten "on the ball" with it.
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Old November 9, 2013, 10:47 AM   #45
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I think the .260 is fairly popular, and gaining some ground. But, there are a LOT of 6.5s that compete for the love. There are some decent factory loads, but handloads really shine, so that is probably another factor. At 200 yards, I could not get any factory loads to group under 2" when my handloads are all under 1". Whoever decided to load a Trophy bonded bearclaw in the .260 should be whipped.

It is also surrounded by other "favorites" like the .243, .257R, .25-06, .270. While I think the .260 is at the top of the class in the .24 to .28 caliber standard calibers, there is just too much competition for one to outpace any other by a great deal.
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Old November 9, 2013, 12:37 PM   #46
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I think one reason the .260 isn't more popular (I agree that it should be) is because it has some stiff competition with another round that is gaining popularity with the target shooting crowd, the 6.5 creedmoor.

The .260 wins slightly in the velocity department, but the creedmoor "supposedly" is more "inherently accurate" due to the slightly shorter case and sharper shoulder angle.

I think that both the .260 and 6.5 creedmoor will never be as popular as they could be if the other wasn't around.

That's just my take on it.
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Old November 9, 2013, 01:44 PM   #47
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Ballistics are very similar (but, still a bit better) than the .08, but there's very little factory ammo on the shelves for the .260.
....and what there is is pretty spendy, from what I have seen. If you can find it all, it is 2X what more common calibers such as .308, .270, or 30-06 for comparable ammo ....
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Old November 9, 2013, 02:01 PM   #48
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I think the Creedmoor was born strictly because the .260 was not popular. Remington dropped the ball with the .260, thus its near identical twin (the Creedmoor) was birthed.
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Old November 9, 2013, 02:07 PM   #49
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I would venture a guess that most .260 rem owners are reloaders
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