The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 4, 2013, 05:02 PM   #1
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,167
7mm-08 vs. .308: from a reloading standpoint

I really don't like the "A" vs. "B" threads, and I don't want this to turn into a peeing contest between 7mm-08 shooters and .308 shooters.

That being said, I have never owned either of these rounds, but I plan on buying a rifle chambered for one or the other as primarily a fun range gun that will also be hunted with some for whitetail and black bear. I understand that either one will very effectively take the game I'd be hunting, I'm not worried about that. I have plenty of hunting rifles should I need something different for a particular hunt.

I have never had a designated "range gun" before, but I'm joining my local gun club so I figured that was a good enough reason to purchase another rifle. Like I need a reason

I will of course be loading my own ammo for the rifle so take into account all the factors such as availability of components, bullet selection, ballistics, and any other factors that I may be forgetting at the moment.

I'm only considering these two because they are both offered in the rifle I'm looking at getting.

The .308 would be 1:10" twist, 22" barrel

The 7mm-08 a 1:9.5" twist, 22" barrel

Which round would be better for me in your opinion and why?
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight -Psalm 144:1, KJV, a Psalm of David
steveNChunter is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 05:11 PM   #2
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 3,828
I'd pick the .308 for so darned much ammo being around for it.

No significant difference for you uses in my opinion except I thnk the .308's twist should be 1:12. That's what worked best for bullets from 150 to 180 grains in M14NM rifles' 22" barrels when accuracy was important. If you'll only shoot bullet weights between 165 and 180 grains, then a 1:11 twist is best.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former USA Palma Team Member
NRA High Power Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 05:17 PM   #3
Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2000
Posts: 3,580
I reload, so would go with the 7MM-08 as I like the ballistics a tad better, and the bullet selection for 7MM is great. Not there aren't a heck of a lot of .30 out there.
__________________
Pilot
Pilot is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 05:27 PM   #4
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,167
So with the 1:10 I'm probably going to be seeing the best accuracy from the heaviest bullets? Hmm... that wasn't really what I was wanting to load for it. I was hoping to load in the 150-168 gr. range for .308

What's going to be the optimum weight for accuracy with a 1:9.5" 7mm-08? That may help me make my decision.

I agree about the .308 ammo being a plus, but as long as I can get enough .308 family brass that won't be an issue. I can resize all that .308 brass to 7mm very easily.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight -Psalm 144:1, KJV, a Psalm of David
steveNChunter is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 05:36 PM   #5
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near Ohio, Indiana.
Posts: 3,505
The 7MM-08 is going to be significantly easier on your shoulder than the .308. It is something to consider for a "range gun". Especially if you are going to shoot it off the bench. There should not be any great difference in finding hand loading components...the 7MM-08 is currently quite popular.
__________________
Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
dahermit is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 07:48 PM   #6
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,167
If I were to go with 7mm-08 I've read several threads/articles saying that the 120 or 140 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip is capable of accuracy comparable to match bullets and would make a good target/hunting "do all" bullet.

I'm currently leaning more in the direction of 7mm-08 but haven't completely ruled out .308

I've checked a few sites to see what availability was on various 7mm and .308 bullets. While there is definitely a larger selection of .30 cal bullets, a lot of them say "out of stock, no backorder". More of the 7mm's are available or at least available for backorder.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight -Psalm 144:1, KJV, a Psalm of David
steveNChunter is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 07:58 PM   #7
tobnpr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 2,765
My LR stick is 7-08.
My younger son's is .308.

We don't hunt, so retained energy isn't relevant for us, but it's all about ballistics at 600-1000.

You didn't state the distance you're going to be shooting...the 7-08 (and 7mm in general) carries a ballistic advantage over the .30 here.

However, I've been commenting on a few threads lately that the availability of high BC, long range bullets for the 7mm isn't so great- and the favorite of many, the 162 Amax, has been suspended from production.

I think the choice comes down to the range you're going to be shooting- both target and game- and the energy required for the latter.

But if you're thinking more "range gun", the 7-08 "beats" the .308 simply because of the better ballistics of the 7mm bullets.
__________________
Custom Gunstocks for the Mosin-Nagant and Stock Duplication
www.biggorillagunworks.com
tobnpr is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 08:06 PM   #8
603Country
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 2,109
Except for recoil, I don't think it makes much difference which one you pick.
603Country is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 08:28 PM   #9
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 3,828
Quote:
You didn't state the distance you're going to be shooting...the 7-08 (and 7mm in general) carries a ballistic advantage over the .30 here.
I don't know of any 7mm bullet with a G1 BC of .700 like Sierra's 30 caliber 240 grain HPMK.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former USA Palma Team Member
NRA High Power Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 08:28 PM   #10
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,167
Quote:
You didn't state the distance you're going to be shooting...the 7-08 (and 7mm in general) carries a ballistic advantage over the .30 here.
I don't have much experience shooting over about 300 yards, as I've been primarily into hunting and just shot targets while doing load development and practicing for hunting.

So shooting much over 300 yards will be new to me. I'll probably start there and eventually work my way out. I don't know that I'll reach 1000 yards, (that seems to be what everybody wants to do) but it's not out of the question someday.

I realize that out to 300 yards the trajectory of these rounds is nearly identical.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight -Psalm 144:1, KJV, a Psalm of David
steveNChunter is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 09:20 PM   #11
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,167
Quote:
I don't know of any 7mm bullet with a G1 BC of .700 like Sierra's 30 caliber 240 grain HPMK.
The Nosler 7mm 175 gr Accubond LR has a B.C. of .672. That's pretty good for a 175 gr hunting bullet.

They also have a 210 gr .30 cal with a B.C. of .730
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight -Psalm 144:1, KJV, a Psalm of David
steveNChunter is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 09:29 PM   #12
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 1,893
The 180 Berger at .672 is pretty close. I have had better success at long range with .284 than I have had with the .30. Less recoil is probably the important factor. I am sure that set up as a rail gun the two would perform near identically.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 09:47 PM   #13
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnsota
Posts: 2,656
Never shot a 7-08,but it is on my list of rifles to buy. As for the 308,,Awesome round. Just a all around good shooting round. I choose the 308 over the 7 just because. As I said the 7 is in my future too.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional
4runnerman is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 09:36 AM   #14
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 426
From a reloading standpoint, .308 bass is way easier to come by, and for that reason a lot cheaper. .308 bullets in varying sizes are more readily available, not that 7mm is hard to find. 7mm probably shoot s a little flatter at long range.
TimSr is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 10:27 AM   #15
jwrowland77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2012
Location: Conway, Arkansas
Posts: 861
7mm-08 vs. .308: from a reloading standpoint

I love my .308. I think as far as target/hunting rifle, .308 would be my choice.

Why? It's a great hunting gun, target gun and if you ever choose to compete, say in F-class, with the .308 you would have the choice of going FTR or F-Open. With the 7mm-08, you're stuck in the F-Open.

There's plenty of bullets out there for both, brass I don't know, as I am normally only looking for .308.

Either one though will serve its purpose for target and/or hunting.
jwrowland77 is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 11:13 AM   #16
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,452
Quote:
I don't know of any 7mm bullet with a G1 BC of .700 like Sierra's 30 caliber 240 grain HPMK.
A 240gr bullet in a .308 case is good for what, exactly? I can't think of a single practical use for such a thing....... subsonic loads maybe? What good is that out of the OP's 22" barrel? Other cartridges can do subsonic loads much better with much shorter rifles.

From a reloading standpoint, 7-08 will generally give flatter trajectories for a given bullet weight ..... with similar BC bullets, the .308" bullets will have to be heavier, generally, meaning lower velocities and/or more recoil.

.308" diameter bullets will be more common, and therefore cheaper, generally. .308 WIN/7.62x51NATO ammo will be more common than 7-08 ...... but the OP is asking about reloading- he can form 7-08 brass from .308 brass ...... so long as he has 7mm bullets, he's good to go .....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 11:21 AM   #17
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 17,466
I'm a big fan of the 7mm-08. I seems to be just about the perfect compromise for North American hunting. Plenty of range for any animal and any distance that the hunter can make the shot. Little enough recoil to be tolerable at most any reasonable shooting volume.

Super long range ballistics doesn't have a lot of meaning to me when it comes to shooting animals. If you can judge the wind and know your gun well enough to make the shot it's just a matter of clicking the scope. If you can't, you've got no business shooting that far, don't make up for it with a cartridge that drifts/drops less so you can screw up worse.

With a 10mph crosswind, a 140gr SST in 7mm MV 2,950 will drift 18.4 inches at 500. Under identical conditions, a 180gr SST from a .308 MV 2,650 will drift 21.8".

I could choose different bullets for either caliber to make one better than the other. Point being, you're looking at 2 or 3 inches at 500 yards. No matter, if you do your job either of them will do theirs. If you do not, they will not.

I could shoot the 7-08 a lot longer than a .308 (all else being equal) so I'd be a better shooter with that gun. That's what matters to me.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body.
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 11:37 AM   #18
ntg
Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2013
Location: 4B - Idaho
Posts: 94
I too am a big fan of 7mm-08. The only downside to it IMO (because I'm a reloader) is that it can't compete in as many classes as the 308. Aside from that the 7-08 is better in every regard IMO. As far as hunting goes, they'll both work for whatever I want to hunt in north america.
ntg is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 11:49 AM   #19
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 3,828
Quote:
A 240gr bullet in a .308 case is good for what, exactly?
Long range rifle matches. Shooting the Palma course, for example.

David Tubb and others have used them in .308 Win's with a 1:8 twist shooting them out at 2150 fps. Bucked the wind better than virtually any other 30 caliber bullet for targets that far away shot from .308's. Went through the 1000 yard target about 1250 fps; that's supersonic. Wind drift's about 8.5" per mph of crosswind.

And flatter trajectories does not mean better accuracy. Only a longer point blank range band for a given average trajectory limit from the line of sight.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former USA Palma Team Member
NRA High Power Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; November 5, 2013 at 11:54 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 12:03 PM   #20
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,452
Quote:
With a 10mph crosswind, a 140gr SST in 7mm MV 2,950 will drift 18.4 inches at 500. Under identical conditions, a 180gr SST from a .308 MV 2,650 will drift 21.8".
...... and the 180 from a 308 loaded to 2650 will kick the hello out of you when compared to the 140 7mm loaded to 2950, in rifles of equal weight and design.

What would the drop on that 308 be compared to the 7mm? At 400, I'd be a lot more confident with the 2 foot holdover from the faster 7mm bullet than the nearly 3 foot holdover from the slower, heavier .308 one .....

The 7-08 shoots flatter, and kicks less. Not by a huge amount in either case .....

The flatter trajectory portion of the argument won't matter at all to people that don't shoot past 300.

When you get past 300, every little bit matters...... including the recoil- if your gun kicks the hello out of you, how much are you going to practice past 300? Not as much as you would if it did not.



When the only legal deer you have seen in days it standing broadside at 460 yards .... you'll thank yourself for having a flat-shooting rig that you have practiced with past 400. BTDT.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 12:39 PM   #21
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 17,466
You ain't gotta convince me that the 7-08 is better but I don't consider the drop numbers to have any significance. Shooting 460 yards is not an estimate. You know the distance. It doesn't matter if it's 5 clicks or 15 or 30. I can put a bullet in the .308 that will drift less and drop less than the 7-08 or I can do the same for the 7-08. I don't think drop matters at all, it's a known quantity. Wind is the trick.

I like the 7-08 for all the reasons mentioned and I don't think the .308 has any real world advantages. It's largely a matter of preferences though. Most folks who think one way won't be convinced of the other.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body.
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 12:56 PM   #22
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 3,828
Quote:
They (Nosler) also have a 210 gr .30 cal with a B.C. of .730
I doubt that BC is correct.

Compared to Sierra's 30 caliber 240-gr. HPMK bullet with about a third more sectional density, 30 grains more weight and both having a near identical shape and length, Sierra's BC of .711 seems realistic to me over Noslers .730 BC claim for their lighter and less dense one.

Sierra calculates BC's based on time of flight between two points the the velocity through each one for their bullets. I've no idea how Nosler calculates BC's; probably by math based on shape and weight; a good example of doing most of the wrong stuff. Nosler's got a bunch of other ballistic and accuracy ideas that are way off the mark of reality, in my opinion. But their hunting bullets are excellent.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former USA Palma Team Member
NRA High Power Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 01:17 PM   #23
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,452
Quote:
Shooting 460 yards is not an estimate. You know the distance.
Rangefinders are cool tools.

Quote:
It doesn't matter if it's 5 clicks or 15 or 30.
I don't use the come-ups. Don't have that equipment. It's hold-over from POI, and it works.

Quote:
I can put a bullet in the .308 that will drift less and drop less than the 7-08 or I can do the same for the 7-08.
And the .308 bullet with the same or better BC will weigh more, and thus recoil more, discouraging practice, and discouraging practical accuracy.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 01:28 PM   #24
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 1,893
Brian, you will not convince me that simply knowing the amount of clicks is all there is to long range shooting as it applies to a hunting situation. It is as easy to click 10 clicks as it is to click 5, with that I do not disagree. The higher velocity round is much more forgiving to wind drift. The problem I run into with low velocity round that I usually do not encounter to nearly such an extent with the high velocity rounds is wind drift.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old November 5, 2013, 02:07 PM   #25
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 17,466
That's what I said.

The only thing that really matters is wind. Distance (drop) doesn't count. Even with the wind, these two rounds are so close, over-lap in so many ways, that the arguments can be reversed simply by choosing a different bullet. Very, very few shooters will choose the bullet (in either caliber) that has the absolute highest BC. No matter what each individual chooses, there is likely to be a bullet in the other caliber that is as good or better.

Hence, I say that the only thing that matters is practice and the 7-08 has less recoil, which means (probably) more and better practice.

However, I fully recognize that all of that has a strong dose of subjectivity and so will not likely convince anyone who believes otherwise.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body.
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12331 seconds with 7 queries