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Old January 18, 2014, 11:13 PM   #101
Theohazard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robmints
I'm not sure what your opinions are based on
My opinions are based on my experience in the suppressor industry as both an enthusiast and a retailer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robmints
I have never had the need to work with stellite, but have worked with titanium and inconel (along with many other types of stainless) and they are just tooling, fixturing, and process considerations, not rocket science.
No, not rocket science. But they help increase the cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robmints
$500 is way crazy for what it is, IMO.
First, $500 is MSRP. Most places aren't going to charge anywhere near MSRP for a Sparrow.

I agree with you that the prices are too high for what you're actually getting. But they're too high because of how the BATFE process affects the market prices of silencers, NOT because the companies have joined together to charge artificially high prices just to screw consumers.
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Old January 19, 2014, 01:30 AM   #102
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I have not found anyone locally that discounts suppressor much. I love the idea of being a considerate neighbor and saving the hearing of the people I shoot with so I'm sure my mind may change to come around to your way of thinking. But for now, I'm stuck in the mud.
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Old January 19, 2014, 02:03 AM   #103
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I have a friend who bough the 75.00 oil filter adapter and paid the 200 fee and I was surprised how good it works. Filter is a little large, but I'm sure there are smaller ones. It took a 22 down to almost nothing and total cost 275 license and all. Buy a new filter when needed. On a scoped gun I don't think the smaller filters would impede sights and on a 22 I could still get close enough for targets to be ok. Something to think about...do a YouTube search for oil filter suppressor. They are registered with batf .
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Old January 19, 2014, 03:58 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooterbob
Buy a new filter when needed.
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. The BATFE also regulates all silencer parts; when you use an oil filter that becomes a silencer part. And just as it's illegal for the user to change out the baffles on a normal suppressor, if you change out the oil filter on an oil filter suppressor you're breaking federal law and you're eligible for 10 years in federal prison and a $250,000 fine.

If your friend ever changes out the oil filter that came with his oil filter adaptor then he's committing a federal felony. The only way he can legally change the filter is if he sends the whole thing back to the manufacturer or another properly licensed company.
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Old January 19, 2014, 04:51 AM   #105
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Here suppressors are practically unregulated, cheap and available. Reasons as to why not own more of them:
- threading costs
- threads are one more thing to clean
- thread protectors are ugly
- the cans are ugly, they move the center of gravity and add weight
- they are painful to clean
- they cause more gunk to come at the shooter in autoloaders.
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Old January 19, 2014, 12:09 PM   #106
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Actually it doesn't come with the filter. You are allowed to put any filter on it. It's the adapter only that's registered with Atf.
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Old January 19, 2014, 01:35 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooterbob
Actually it doesn't come with the filter. You are allowed to put any filter on it. It's the adapter only that's registered with Atf.
Your friend has been breaking federal law for a while now, then. The BATFE ruled some time ago that each oil filter had to be serialized to the adaptor. And when the filter wears out it has to be sent in and changed by the manufacturer. Most manufacturers do this fairly cheaply, around $25 or so.

My guess is that your friend's SOT was unclear on the law when he bought the adaptor, or your friend bought the adaptor before the BAFTE clarified their position on changing oil filters (I don't know the history of that decision). But as it stands now, your friend is committing a federal felony by using his own oil filter on his adaptor. And if you shoot it with him you're also committing a federal felony. If you don't believe me, I'd suggest you or your friend call the BATFE's NFA branch for clarification, because this is something you don't want to mess around with.
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Old January 19, 2014, 02:20 PM   #108
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Nothing is stopping me in the UK I have a few, they are easily available for all firearms apart from handguns. A good one for .22 is around $30 , as for threading all Ruger 10/22 for example supplied here already have the barrel threaded.

Last edited by manta49; January 19, 2014 at 03:25 PM.
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Old January 19, 2014, 03:26 PM   #109
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Well I think I will chime in once more and ask a question.

Theo, you have said several times (so to speak) that the cost is so high because of all the red tape and hoops the manufacturers have to jump through, which are passed on to the customer.

So for the benefit of the readership, could you tell us all what those costs are exactly?

Not the costs the customer has to pay himself directly to the Treasury and/or BATFE, but those costs that the manufacturer has to pay to the government BEFORE the can is even sold!

Perhaps I am just unaware of any laws requiring the manufacturer to pay taxes before the sale, but if there are any, please tell us about them and site the laws that require them.
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Old January 19, 2014, 03:52 PM   #110
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Actually it doesn't come with the filter. You are allowed to put any filter on it. It's the adapter only that's registered with Atf.

That is not true Bob. Bad idea. The outer sleeve of the suppressor is kind of specific as to what it is, and how it has to be marked, and who can repair it, and when. To do some things you need to pay the special occupational tax of $1000 or $500 depending on your income. What your friend is doing is 1 million percent not worth it, just follow the law or don't do it.

He must send it back and they need to change the filter IMO. I think you will find this to be true. When he first received it, it should have had a filter already installed. When the filter needs to be changed, he needs to send it back. There is some gray area between form 4, form 1, those that have paid the occupational tax, what parts can be repaired or replaced, how, and by who. If I were your friend, I would check with the ATF and not depend on the say so of the place that sold him the adaptor, or your friends own interpretation of the law. It's not worth it.
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Old January 19, 2014, 03:55 PM   #111
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Perhaps I am just unaware of any laws requiring the manufacturer to pay taxes before the sale, but if there are any, please tell us about them and site the laws that require them.

Read here about occupational tax, should be a thousand bucks if income is greater than 500k.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...-firearms.html
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Old January 19, 2014, 04:02 PM   #112
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So I went and asked him for his paper work from atf and all that is registered is the adapter. The adapter was developed as the integral part of the suppressor apparently. I had thought originally that the filter was part of it as well. Inspecting this its apparent that the company making the adapter and selling them was able able to get just the adapter registered.I will investigate more on this though to make sure.
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Old January 19, 2014, 04:15 PM   #113
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What you are saying is true, I'm sure. But I'm 99.99% positive he can't change his own filter. As crazy as that sounds.
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Old January 19, 2014, 04:19 PM   #114
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Wyosmith: It's not so much that the direct fees to the BATFE drive up costs, it's the extra man-hours required to deal with the extra paperwork and the extra scrutiny of the BATFE on every level, from manufacturer to distributer to dealer.

Heck, just storage is a pain: For every suppressor manufactured the manufacturer has to submit a Form 2 to the BATFE. Then they have to submit a Form 3 for each one in order to ship it to the distributer. Then they have to store if for 2-3 months while the BATFE processes the Form 3. Then each distributer has to submit another Form 3 for the same suppressor in order to send it to a dealer. And they have to store it for those 2-3 months while they wait for the Form 3 to come back. Then the dealer has to store the suppressor for upwards of 10 months while they wait for the Form 4 to come back.

Once again, I agree that the prices are too high for what you're getting, but it's due to the several reasons that I've already addressed previously. Are you continuing to argue that the prices are artificially too high and everyone's getting screwed? Because if someone believes that then they either believe there's a big conspiracy involving the entire industry, or they just don't understand high-school-level economics. And I doubt you don't understand basic economics considering you used to be a CEO.
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Old January 19, 2014, 04:49 PM   #115
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Yea I think your right. Even though it doesnt state that, I believe like you do as well. I think I will call atf since I deal with them all the time and get a definitive answer. Might be good if he's right, but, I'm not holding my breath.
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Old January 19, 2014, 06:29 PM   #116
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Money. And it would look funny on my flintlock longrifle.
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Old January 19, 2014, 07:48 PM   #117
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Here's a link to a BATFE letter stating that the user CANNOT change the oil filter themselves:

http://i.imgur.com/Eh4Pe.jpg

I recommend you show this to your friend and advise him to stop using his oil-filter suppressor immediately.
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:59 PM   #118
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Ok Theo, now that's about what I was expecting. Thanks for the reply.

You see, it's not that all these waits and forms cost so much. The truth is actually those waits and forms are just using the hassles to justify the price.

And yes, I think I do understand economics pretty well, as I have been studying it for a hobby now for over 30 years. When I took over as CEO the company was several HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars in the hole, and in 11 months I had them back in the black. Yes, I do understand very well.

Economics is a study that has MANY different facets and they have a tendency to move in cycles.
When and if some suppressor company decides to try the “McDonalds Approach” they will find that for about the first 1-2 years they will just own the market. Then other makers will have to try to catch up.
So if you have not studied economics you may well ask “what is the McDonalds approach”?

Back in the 70s when McDonalds was growing at a break-neck pace, it was found that they were only earning 2.7 CENTS per hamburger, and when the Big Mack came out, they made 4 cents on those.

So how did they get so big and make so much money that for a while they were they netted the largest profits of any restaurant corporation in the world?
Simple!
They sold their sandwiches by the BILLONS. They actually made more money on the paper cup that a Coke came in than the coke inside it was profiting them.

You see, for a short time (before they let quality slip and made compromises) they owned the largest share of the fast food market not only in the USA but in a few other countries as well. They did it by making a small but reliable profit, and knowing that they would dominate over 70% of the competition’s markets. Instead of trying to make the maximum amount in the short term, they made a still larger amount over more time by making their products available and inexpensive.

McDonalds international was not selling Prime New York Steaks. That was a different market. They were selling sandwiches to the people on a budget.

Not all your suppressors need to be able to withstand 500,000 rounds of full auto fire. VERY VERY few people can shoot that much. There is nothing wrong with offering a model for the average man, and another one for the "can-snobs". But the average men outnumber the "can-snobs" buy a huge margin.

Give us a can that has about 1/3 more life than the average barrel. I'd bet that 1 in 1000 shooters ever shoot out a barrel in their rifles. Cater to the 1000 and not just the one.

Give the market a can that will give top performance for about 14,000-18,000 rounds of slow or semi-auto fire. Give it to the shooting world for about $300 and you will own 90% market in one year or less.

Now there is no way a firearms company is going to sell billons of anything except bullets and cartridges, but as I said in my previous post, the hassles of owning a can combined with the COST to be hassled are what is breaking the back of that part of the industry.

I do not have much interest in a can, but if I could buy one for $300 I am sure I might get one just to have one. But if I know I must be hassled, compromise any possibility of privacy to a corrupt government, risk being “listed” on some anti-gun list for future government abuse, AND pay out the nose to have all the above, I and literally MILLONS of other shooters choose not to even bother.

If you would make them at a working profit instead of an obscene mark-up, you would induce (ok…..call it baiting, because that’s what ALL marketing is, including mine) millions of shooters to buy them instead of a few thousands.

Not all will get in line to buy a good $300 suppressor, but if I made a guess I’d say about 50% of all shooters would.
How many shooters are there in the USA?
Ask the NRA.
Keep in mind that for every shooter that is an NRA member there are probably 20 shooters that don’t belong to the NRA, and that came right from Charliton Heston when he was the NRA Pres.

Those numbers are huge. Also keep in mind that few gun owners who are not avid shooters will buy a suppressor, but those that are avid shooters nearly always have more than one gun. So you probably would sell several to each buyer.

Remember Toyota and Subaru in the early 70s and late 60s?

American cars then got ½ the mileage, cost 2-3X as much, broke down faster and lasted 1/3 as long.
Do you think Toyota and Subaru are in danger of going broke because they sold a good car cheaply?
Now the American car makers are running to catch up. But inn the 70s they didn’t bother to try. They dug in their heels and just said “We have to make this level of quality and we HAVE to charge this much”. Well how well did that work for them over about 5-10 years?

In the modern market place the way to make more money is NOT to charge more. It’s to charge less……….and sell more.
LOTS more.
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Old January 19, 2014, 09:11 PM   #119
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Not all will get in line to buy a good $300 suppressor, but if I made a guess I’d say about 50% of all shooters would.

I'll take 2. One 22 cal rimfire and one 30 cal centerfire.
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Old January 19, 2014, 09:30 PM   #120
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Wyosmith:

Right now, most people are willing to pay top dollar for quality instead of buying a lesser product for less money.

Here's the thing, due to the cost of following BATFE regulations, the few companies that are trying to follow the "McDonald's Approach" still can't make their silencers cheap enough to be able to gain enough market share. Due to the fact that people are already paying $200, waiting all that time, and probably won't ever be able to sell it, there's just not as much of a demand for cheaper, lower quality suppressors.
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Old January 19, 2014, 11:01 PM   #121
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Well Theo, I understand your points very well, but I think you are reasoning backwards in your line of logic.

You say "most people are willing to pay top dollar", but the very existence of the question that started this thread is proof that is not so.
Most people (like 99.5%) are NOT willing to pay top dollar or they would be doing so.

I have interacted with many thousands of shooters in the USA and as of this minute I can think of exactly 7 that own suppressors.

You say “Due to the fact that people are already paying $200, waiting all that time, and probably won't ever be able to sell it, there's just not as much of a demand for cheaper, lower quality suppressors.”

The tax of $200 is a given (as of this writing) and that is an issue that needs to be considered in the overall price to be sure. BUT… many shooters would risk that $200 and maybe another $300 for the can if that was all they were risking.

The idea that they (that would be all of us reading this) don’t want “a cheaper lower quality suppressor” is not a valid point in that there is no such thing.

“Lower quality” is not an issue as much as shorter service life. I am not saying you should make junk, (just the opposit) but I am saying that most folks including myself will NOT spend money on a can that will outlast 20 M-16 barrels used full auto. I am not that rich so that much service life is of no value to me or 99% of the shooters in this country.

I think you’re backwards in that if the price was reasonable for such a can, I am sure the market would shock you.

There was a time when it was said "we don't see a need for high gas mileage."
There was a time when it was said “We have no need to fly"
There was a time when it was said "folks would never buy a horseless carriage. Horses have been good for 50000 years"

Such is the shortsightedness of man.

You can't say that people would not buy what you refuse to make of even consider.
Consideration and asking for public opinion may be a better way to proceed than to tell the public what they will buy (public,......that's me---- and all that are reading this)

Remember this Theo
You started this post and asked the question.
Now you are arguing against the answers.

Are you 100% SURE no one will buy a car that gets high mileage? Or a good inexpensive suppressor?

If so, what makes you sure?

Please consider the line of logic from the other direction.

I am sure (as a successful ex-CEO) that you will find I am right, and you will do a lot better in your profits.

I am uninvested. As I said, I have no real interest in a suppressor. I post these replies only for your benefit.
It costs me nothing if you make millions or if you go broke.

You asked the question. All replies were in response to you. No one else.
A wise man seeks many counsels.
May God bless you with wisdom.
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Old January 20, 2014, 12:06 AM   #122
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But there are already companies making cheap silencers. And those companies aren't anywhere near as successful as the companies making top-quality, expensive silencers. Where are all those people who you say would jump on the opportunity to buy those silencers? Instead, silencers from the high-end companies are selling very well. The most innovative silencer company out there is Silencerco, and they just made Forbes' list of top 500 fastest-growing companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
You say "most people are willing to pay top dollar", but the very existence of the question that started this thread is proof that is not so.
Most people (like 99.5%) are NOT willing to pay top dollar or they would be doing so.
OK, let me add to that statement: "Most people who are willing to jump through all the BATFE hoops, wait almost a year, and buy a silencer that they'll never be able to sell are willing to pay top dollar." I've talked to thousands of customers about silencers, and FAR more people are put off by the complicated and lengthy registration process and tax than they are by the cost of the silencer itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
I am sure (as a successful ex-CEO) that you will find I am right, and you will do a lot better in your profits.
I'm not a manufacturer, I'm just a retailer. We sell what our customers want at the best prices possible and we still don't make as much of a profit on silencers as we do on guns.

If your business model for cornering the market on cheap suppressors was a good one, I would think someone would have done it by now. As much as silencers have increased in popularity in the last decade or so, I find it very difficult to believe that no one has managed to fully capitalize on this market.
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Old January 20, 2014, 12:27 AM   #123
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Wyosmith:

Here's a perfect example of how silencer purchasers want the latest and best stuff and are willing to pay more for it: We recently found ourselves with an overstock of previous-generation silencers. These were good products from top-tier companies but they were a few years old, and in the meantime slightly better products had come out. And as a result we couldn't sell them, not even when we offered them at a large discount.

We ended up selling these silencers at or below cost; selling good .22 silencers at $150 - $300 dollars, good pistol silencers at $300 - $400 dollars, and good rifle silencers at $500 to $700. And we still had a heck of a time selling them! People wanted the newest and best stuff and were willing to pay more for it; for every bottom-dollar silencer we sold, we sold ten top-dollar ones.
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Old January 20, 2014, 10:47 AM   #124
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All your points are taken Theo.
As you are a retailer I see the focus of your original question better now.
Your quote;
“ What's stopping so many people from buying a silencer?”

But you also just validated my points (Again, for about the 5th time)
Go back and re-read my posts! Read them carefully.
The manufacturers are over charging!
That’s what I have been saying all along.

Now you say you can't even sell some of the older GOOD suppressors at cost or below cost easily. Again --- you paid too much.

Go back and re-read all my posts and you'll see the focus of my posts have been and continues to be the FACT that the cans are over priced by the manufacturers.
And one more time I point out that I and several others here are only answering YOUR question.

“Which brings me to this question: What's stopping so many people from buying a silencer?”
It is YOUR post and YOUR question.

Are you trying to say we can’t give you an honest answer?
Are we not entitled to answer?
No one here that’s saying they cost too much is being abrasive. No one is attacking you.
They are simply giving you an honest answer to your question.
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Old January 20, 2014, 11:29 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
Now you say you can't even sell some of the older GOOD suppressors at cost or below cost easily. Again --- you paid too much.
Then why were we able to sell the newer, higher-priced ones so much more easily? Our main mistake was buying to many suppressors at one time and ending up with an over stock on certain ones. You said that if companies could get their silencers down to a certain price they would skyrocket in popularity. Well, we sold some older silencers at the prices you mentioned, and they were still VERY hard to sell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
Are you trying to say we can’t give you an honest answer?
Are we not entitled to answer?
No one here that’s saying they cost too much is being abrasive. No one is attacking you.
They are simply giving you an honest answer to your question.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I agree that prices are too high. I agree that if the NFA were repealed silencer prices would plummet and ownership would skyrocket. I agree that the high prices come mostly from the manufacturers end. But I disagree with your assertion that the prices are too high simply because the manufacturers have joined together to keep them artificially high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
Go back and re-read all my posts and you'll see the focus of my posts have been and continues to be the FACT that the cans are over priced by the manufacturers.
I'm still amazed that for someone who doesn't understand silencers or the suppressor business, you continue to present this as absolute fact. Yes, they're priced too high for many people. Yes, they would be much more popular if they were a lot cheaper. But so far NO company has been able to get their silencers cheap enough to appeal to enough of those people. None.

I'm not saying that silencers aren't priced too high, I'm simply arguing the REASONS for it. And for someone who understands so little of silencers or the silencer business, you seem awfully convinced that you know those reasons better than I do.

I'll ask you again: As popular as silencers have become recently, why hasn't any company come forward yet and capitalized on your proposed business model of offering super-cheap silencers to all those people who are put off by the current high prices? The answer is simple: They just can't get them low enough to appeal to those people and still survive as a company.
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