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Old January 14, 2014, 07:54 AM   #76
SR420
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One of the best gun related investments I've ever made.

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Old January 14, 2014, 08:28 AM   #77
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While I've got nothing against them, I just don't feel I have enough need or desire to justify the time and expense.
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Old January 14, 2014, 09:27 AM   #78
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Because they are not permitted in most of the forms of shooting I do.
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Old January 14, 2014, 09:55 AM   #79
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To answer the original question, what's stopping me form buying one?

1. Long NFA wait times.
2. Excessive expense. This thing is basically a lawn-mower muffler. Any decent hobbiest could cobble one together in a garage welding shop for about $40.00 in materials, total. Maybe a few more dollars to buy a 1/2X28 tap for the threads.
3. I'm not going to pay a $200 tax for a lawnmower muffler, and I'm darned sure not going to pay the exorbitant prices that many manufacturers think they're worth.
4. But hey, it's a free country (or what resembles a free country). If you want to pay the toll, then have fun with it.
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Old January 14, 2014, 10:35 AM   #80
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On #2, you CAN make your own but you still have to file the form and pay the fee FIRST.
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Old January 15, 2014, 04:15 PM   #81
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Expense and paperwork/legal complexity (CLEO will not sign off on them here so has to be a trust).

I do find it ironic though that we pride ourselves on the relative ease we can get firearms in the US, and yet it is far easier/cheaper (sometimes no restrictions at all) to get suppressors in places like Italy, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Finland and even the UK or New Zealand (from what I've read so far)...
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Old January 15, 2014, 04:51 PM   #82
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Ohio is silencer-friendly. You can't carry one on your CCW (yet...we MIGHT talk them into that someday), but you can use them pretty freely wherever it is legal to shoot. I started with a .45 MAC10 and suppressor, and quickly realized I liked suppressor more than feeding a full auto......suppressors end up costing a lot less. Sold the MAC and can back in the 1980's, then got a .22 rimfire suppressor. Everyone should own a .22 suppressor. If you buy a .22 centerfire can, you can use them on both. I recently lucked into a purchase of two 9mm suppressors that were so low in price, I couldn't refuse. They were demonstrators, and slightly outdated AAC "wet" cans that aren't made anymore. $200, for one, $225 for the other, and $400 for the two stamps: about $900 total, out the door, for two. They are very unique in that they are only 1" in diameter, one being 4" long, the other being 6" long, and they work on most all guns without higher sights being added, or piston devices to assist operation. AND, they can be used on guns of lesser caliber, like .380, .32, or .22's. I also have an SWR rifle suppressor for the .300 Win Mag. Wow on that one, too, as it not only reduces the .300 mag to about a .22 short in signature, and also reduces recoil to less than .308. There are advantages besides reducing blast, like my neighbors like me more when I use suppressors. [IMG][/IMG]
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Old January 15, 2014, 06:54 PM   #83
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Quote:
Sharpsdressed Man

quickly realized I liked suppressor more than feeding a full auto......suppressors end up costing a lot less.
I was about to purchase a select fire weapon, but re-crunched the numbers, and decided
a single, multi-host suppressor was a much, much better deal (I am frugal) ... NO regrets.

One .308 suppressor fits all of these rifles.

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Old January 15, 2014, 08:45 PM   #84
Justice06RR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawpaw
To answer the original question, what's stopping me form buying one?

1. Long NFA wait times.
2. Excessive expense. This thing is basically a lawn-mower muffler. Any decent hobbiest could cobble one together in a garage welding shop for about $40.00 in materials, total. Maybe a few more dollars to buy a 1/2X28 tap for the threads.
3. I'm not going to pay a $200 tax for a lawnmower muffler, and I'm darned sure not going to pay the exorbitant prices that many manufacturers think they're worth.
4. But hey, it's a free country (or what resembles a free country). If you want to pay the toll, then have fun with it.
These mirror some of my other thoughts on it.

The 300BLK AAC I've looked at is $600. Plus tax stamp, trust setup fee, and 6month+ long wait. Total is about $1k maybe more depending on the lawyer since I want a Trust done right.

A SBR would be a better choice IMO...
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Old January 15, 2014, 11:28 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
This thing is basically a lawn-mower muffler. Any decent hobbiest could cobble one together in a garage welding shop for about $40.00 in materials, total. Maybe a few more dollars to buy a 1/2X28 tap for the threads.
This is definitely not true for any good-quality can. The good ones are very precisely machined with extremely small tolerances and state-of-the-art baffle designs. Most pistol suppressors have a Nielsen device that allows locked-breech handguns to still function with the extra weight of the suppressors; they allow the can to move back and forth just the right amount but with absolutely zero side-to-side play so there are no baffle strikes. And good rifle cans are made from materials like inconel and stellite that are very expensive and very difficult to work with. And lots of companies offer rifle cans with quick-attach mounting systems that also require precise tolerances.

Pick up a Silencerco Saker 5.56 and take off the MAAD mount, or take apart a Silencerco Sparrow or a SWR Octane. These are all suppressors that many silencer manufacturers can't imitate, let alone hobbyists in their basements. And that's not counting the large amounts of R&D these companies do on a regular basis to make sure they have the latest and best baffle design. A buddy of mine just got back the Form 4 for his Silencerco Osprey 9, and he mentioned how much quieter it is than his Gemtech Multimount 9mm suppressor, and that one is only several years older.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
I'm darned sure not going to pay the exorbitant prices that many manufacturers think they're worth.
That's fine, but don't imply that the price is inflated beyond what it should cost and that the manufacturers are just being greedy. There are several reasons that silencers are so expensive, all of which I mentioned at length already. But greed is not one of those reasons; silencers aren't artificially overpriced any more than guns are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice06RR
A SBR would be a better choice IMO...
Don't forget that you have to jump through all the same hoops and pay the same $200 tax for an SBR.
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Old January 16, 2014, 08:30 AM   #86
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Unless the silencers sold over seas are useless crap, they most certainly are over priced in the US.
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Old January 16, 2014, 11:27 AM   #87
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Just like anything that is deemed 'fun', it must have taxes imposed by the government. These taxes and the raw materials used are some of the cost. Titanium is not cheap. We try to be as fair as possible with our pricing and think that we offer a great product at a fair price.
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Old January 16, 2014, 01:40 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
Unless the silencers sold over seas are useless crap, they most certainly are over priced in the US.
Most of the suppressors sold overseas are crap compared to what you get over here. Over here, people usually want the highest quality possible and the latest and best designs because they're already paying a $200 tax and they're almost certainly not going to be able to ever sell it.

If by "overpriced" you mean suppressors over here are much more expensive than what the equivalent product costs over there, then you're correct. But if by "overpriced" you mean the prices over here are artificially high and the companies are just cheating us, that's not the case at all.
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Old January 16, 2014, 01:57 PM   #89
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Actually, I believe it's all symptoms of the same problem.

When you say those suppressors are "crap", you mean performance, longevity, materials, what?

They don't have to pay a $200 bribe and wait 6 months to get one. Ours are expensive because people expect a product to be expensive when they have to pay an extra $200 and wait 6 months to get it. It's odd, but it's human nature. No one wants to pay $250 for a $50 product but they don't mind, relatively, paying $1000 for an $800 product.

I don't believe the companies are cheating anybody for two reasons. One, it's not possible. The consumer chooses to pay the price. It doesn't matter what the price is. They can't be "Cheated" because they are willingly participating. Second, I believe the research, materials and build quality are results of the scarcity and willingness of consumers to pay a high price since they have to pay the $200. Nothing "greedy" or cheating about it. It's market driven.

However, I'm thoroughly convinced that if the $200 bribe and 6 month wait vanished tomorrow, the largest share of the $800+ suppressor market would vanish with it. Folks would GLADLY pay $50 for a product that's 50% the quality when it's that easy and cheap to get one. I also think those mega-money suppressors would suddenly be priced at 1/2 or less.
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Old January 16, 2014, 02:12 PM   #90
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Yes, I think the suppressors are terrible over priced. Otherwise I would have them on all my guns. The $200 tax stamp and paperwork is bad enough. I now know how important hearing protection is as I sit here with both my ears ringing at around 50 db. Too little too late. I would still use protection if possible with suppressor though.
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Old January 16, 2014, 02:33 PM   #91
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The value is not there for most...myself included. I would have to be in one for under $400 to purchase.
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Old January 16, 2014, 03:11 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
When you say those suppressors are "crap", you mean performance, longevity, materials, what?
All of the above, from what I understand. Most people (including myself) haven't had the opportunity to examine or use foreign suppressors due to the import restrictions. But from all the people I've talked to and from the numerous threads on Silencertalk.com, the quality is generally much lower overseas.

Brian, I agree with you entirely. The market is driven by all the regulation; companies have to offer the latest and best designs to compete. But if the NFA were repealed the bottom would completely drop out of the market. Companies could charge less because the NFA paperwork and restrictions were gone, but most current suppressors would still probably cost a few hundred dollars each or more. But why spend all that money on top-of-the-line stuff made out of space-age materials that will last forever when you can just buy a cheaper suppressor over-the-counter for $50 - $100 and sell it to your buddy if you don't like it?

Currently, many companies try to undercut the top-tier companies by offering their suppressors as cheaply as possible. But they're still expensive due to the regulations; they rarely get even close to half the price of an equivalent top-tier suppressor. And these budget-priced suppressors have noticeably lower quality and performance as a result.
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Old January 17, 2014, 02:40 AM   #93
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Quote:
Don't forget that you have to jump through all the same hoops and pay the same $200 tax for an SBR.
Yes, but I can run with an AR pistol setup and shoot the thing until the stamp arrives so I can install the stock.

With an SBR you can choose any lower you want. Suppressors are limited to what manufacturers produce for the specific weapon.
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Old January 17, 2014, 04:10 PM   #94
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Price combined with it being something I really don't need. For the price of the suppressor and the tax stamp I could buy myself a really nice high end rifle or pistol.
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Old January 18, 2014, 04:36 AM   #95
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+1 Dragline.

If I was to get a 300BLK AAC suppressor it would cost a total of $1k+ with all the expenses involved. With that amount I can walk into a Walmart and buy a Colt6920 complete rifle and take it home the same day, no stupid waiting or long approval process involved.

Another thing to me, is that the NFA is another form of control and government REGISTRATION. your NFA items are now recorded with them; I like to stay under the radar and keep the gov't involvement to a minimum.
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Old January 18, 2014, 03:52 PM   #96
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To answer the original question, what's stopping me form buying one?

1. Long NFA wait times.
2. Excessive expense. This thing is basically a lawn-mower muffler. Any decent hobbiest could cobble one together in a garage welding shop for about $40.00 in materials, total. Maybe a few more dollars to buy a 1/2X28 tap for the threads.
3. I'm not going to pay a $200 tax for a lawnmower muffler, and I'm darned sure not going to pay the exorbitant prices that many manufacturers think they're worth.

My feelings exactly.

Ohazard, you are over-stating the technology involved in most firearm suppressors IMO. PawPaw does understate, but the cost should be somewhere in line with ParkerHale and what other manufacturers sell for in countries where they are legal and recommended.

Most suppressors should be between $200 and $600 and the companies would still make a very nice profit. If I could get a Sparrow for the $200 it should cost, pay the exorbitant tax of $200, and wait a reasonable amount of time for the background (like 2 weeks), I would buy one today. As it is I'll just keep using my airgun or subsonic out of a long barrel like a CZ UL.
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Old January 18, 2014, 05:44 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by robmints
Theohazard, you are over-stating the technology involved in most firearm suppressors IMO.
It depends on which supressors you're talking about. For the top-tier ones I'm definitely not overstating it. If anything, I'm understating it.

The top companies are constantly re-vamping their designs to come up with the best-performing product they can. That amount of R&D is very expensive. And good silencers are very precisely machined, often from high end materiels like titanium, incolnel, and now stellite. Titanium can be difficult to work with, and inconel and stellite is extremely hard to work with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robmints
Most suppressors should be between $200 and $600 and the companies would still make a very nice profit.
Where are you getting these numbers from? If this were the case, why doesn't a company come along and do this? They could completely undercut the top companies and make a huge amount of money. But they don't, and that's because the companies who charge a lot less have to make an inferior product if they still want to make money.

It's amazing to me how many people seem to think silencer companies are all getting together to set the prices high just to screw us all. Because that's the only other possible explanation for why the prices are so high.

But if you don't think this is some kind of big corporate conspiracy, then you have to admit that the prices are high simply due to market forces and the regulations involved.
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Old January 18, 2014, 08:42 PM   #98
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Quote:
If this were the case, why doesn't a company come along and do this?
IMO, there's a perception, right or wrong, by the U.S. silencer makers that given the $200 ticket in the door and the other legal hassle associated with silencers, that people will only go through all that for a top-of-the-line product.

I have no doubt that they're making really, super-duper quality silencers in the U.S. and are pricing them appropriately for what they put into them. But that's not being done because that's the only way to make a decent silencer. It's being done because of the expense and legal hassle associated with the acquisition, use and maintenance of suppressors in the U.S.

Why make a silencer out of titanium, stellite or inconel? It's not because you can't make a good silencer out of steel. It's because if it wears out, it costs the user another $200 tax stamp and another wait. It's because the user can't replace internal parts himself inexpensively without breaking the law. And so on...
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Old January 18, 2014, 09:27 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I have no doubt that they're making really, super-duper quality silencers in the U.S. and are pricing them appropriately for what they put into them. But that's not being done because that's the only way to make a decent silencer. It's being done because of the expense and legal hassle associated with the acquisition, use and maintenance of suppressors in the U.S.
Exactly. People figure if they're already going through all the trouble to get a product that they're almost certainly never going to be able to sell, then they want the top quality possible. And most are willing to pay a little extra for that top quality. And for those who aren't, there are cheaper options available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Why make a silencer out of titanium, stellite or inconel? It's not because you can't make a good silencer out of steel. It's because if it wears out, it costs the user another $200 tax stamp and another wait. It's because the user can't replace internal parts himself inexpensively without breaking the law. And so on...
Yeah, the demand for top-quality products is directly driven by the registration required by the BATFE. If the NFA was repealed silencer prices would plummet, demand would skyrocket, and the average quality would drop significantly.
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Old January 18, 2014, 10:24 PM   #100
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Where are you getting these numbers from? If this were the case, why doesn't a company come along and do this? They could completely undercut the top companies and make a huge amount of money. But they don't, and that's because the companies who charge a lot less have to make an inferior product if they still want to make money.

It's amazing to me how many people seem to think silencer companies are all getting together to set the prices high just to screw us all. Because that's the only other possible explanation for why the prices are so high.

But if you don't think this is some kind of big corporate conspiracy, then you have to admit that the prices are high simply due to market forces and the regulations involved.


A couple of reasons I come to the conclusion. I designed, manufactured, and sold a similar non-firearm related fluid dynamic product for 30 years. And two, I see what the other similar companies charge for suppressors around the world. And yes, the market force is, it is what people are willing to pay. It's very high IMO, you and others have formed their own opinion. I'm not sure what your opinions are based on, but I know what mine is.

It depends on which supressors you're talking about. For the top-tier ones I'm definitely not overstating it. If anything, I'm understating it.

The top companies are constantly re-vamping their designs to come up with the best-performing product they can. That amount of R&D is very expensive. And good silencers are very precisely machined, often from high end materiels like titanium, incolnel, and now stellite. Titanium can be difficult to work with, and inconel and stellite is extremely hard to work with.


I have never had the need to work with stellite, but have worked with titanium and inconel (along with many other types of stainless) and they are just tooling, fixturing, and process considerations, not rocket science. I mentioned the sparrow because that is one I would consider being mostly a subsonic long rifle guy. $500 is way crazy for what it is, IMO. So I don't have a huge problem with the $200 stamp, but I don't feel like I am getting my moneys worth out of the $200 fee because of how long it takes. $200 seems like a premium and it would be reasonable if there was expediting going on. But in reality, it's the opposite taking place. The NFA process is a chilling process and is meant to dissuade ownership of NFA items. The chilling is having more affect on me than the price. On the other hand, I'm not going to spend $5.00 on a can of Dinty Moore, I'll just eat Ramen Noodles. Just like I have other options to shoot at a level that does not bother my neighbors, like long barreled subsonic ammo, or an airgun, I'm not spending $500 on a $200 suppressor.

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