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Old November 5, 2013, 08:47 AM   #51
WildBill45
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NO GUN OF ANY MAKE

Rolls Royce can have issues, if made by man it is not perfect.
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Old November 5, 2013, 02:21 PM   #52
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As a firearms instructor since '90, I've seen my fair share of all manner of different semiautomatic pistols exhibit occasional issues.

As a LE armorer who has been through more than 20+ armorer classes, I can't think of a single class where possible problems and corrective/repair actions weren't discussed, and listed in the manuals.

Granted, the significant majority (by a WIDE margin) of "gun problems" I've had to help resolve over the years have been caused by the shooter, and to a much lesser extent some occasional ammunition issues, but there have still been actual gun problems to address upon occasion. They're machines, made by other machines, assembled by people. Wear & tear from shooting them, and occasional materials issues, breakage, etc, can happen in the real world.

As an armorer I wouldn't make orders for spare/repair parts and preventive maintenance if I didn't have to spend the money.

For most "average" owners of most of the modern good quality semiauto pistols designs, some prudent investment in recoil & mag springs for periodic replacement is probably all they'd ever have cause to need.

Well, that, and actually learning how to properly clean, lubricate and maintain their guns according to manufacturer recommendations, and not just in some manner that makes them "feel good" about themselves.
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Old November 5, 2013, 06:40 PM   #53
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I work in a gun smith shop, in charge of all the paperwork, FFL transfers, and warranty repairs, recalls, ect.

I can honestly say I have pretty much seen multiple of every brand fail.... Crap happens, mistakes are made. To me it does not take away from the brands any, like I said, mistakes are made.

It doesn't shock me when a Glock comes back broken, even though some people think they are made from ground up unicorn horns and oiled with fairy tears.

We hade a HK USP .45 a guy blew the frame in half, and swore it wasn't reloads. HK was kind enough to replace the frame and repair the firearm.

Guns like anything break down from time to time or there are lemons out there. What really matters is that the company does to help you with that situation.
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Old November 5, 2013, 06:58 PM   #54
RX-79G
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I should have written a more descriptive title, since virtually no one read the text or any of my explanatory posts that followed.


Mods, feel free to close this one.
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Old November 5, 2013, 07:05 PM   #55
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I don't think its a matter of us reading your post, I think its a matter of a vague or confusing question.

In one breath you asked for brands that NEVER fail, or are not know to fail, while still admitting there are always lemons and problems.

I think a lot of us tried to answer your question as best we could... EVERYTHING FAILS, therefore there's not one brand NEVER known to fail.
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Old November 5, 2013, 07:28 PM   #56
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No, I asked which brands or models don't have "Known Issues", meaning repeat problems of the same kind.

Then I gave examples, like front sights falling off the same model Ruger many times, or a particular brand having a reputation for detonating .40 cases. Or companies that just generally have a poor rep, like Kimber.

My aim was to find pistols that did not have a reputation for any particular mechanical failing, and I can't seem to explain that well enough for a fairly simple question to be answered.

Example: CZ-75b. Maybe some people had some jams, one guy a sight issue, another guy had a mag latch problem, and one more had a finish issue. Results: Great overall reputation, no repeat problems; meets criteria.

Comments about grip angle, capacity, weight - off topic.
Comments about the definition of "combat pistol" (something that is well understood enough to have a magazine named after it) - off topic.
Comments that any gun can have a one off problem: Covered in OP - off topic.
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Old November 5, 2013, 09:19 PM   #57
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I don't think anyone here has complained about the Roth-Steyr pistols.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth-Steyr_M1907
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Old November 5, 2013, 11:23 PM   #58
HKFan9
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CZ75's sheer their slide stops given enough rounds.... ask most anyone, myself included, who shoots one in IPSC OR IDPA... the competition models used to ship with extra ones....

Like I said.. they all break down at some point, they are man made.
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Old November 6, 2013, 12:21 AM   #59
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CZs are decent guns but not trouble free. My experiences with my Son's SP-01 has shown me that.

Here is what Todd Green from Pistol Forum posted about CZs:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218

27-Jun-10 – 08:00 by ToddG

"As an instructor, I strive to be a good student. Good students are always learning. And last week in Canada, I learned that CZ pistols (pronounced “see zed” in Canadiese) are as reliable as a Ford.

A Ford Pinto, that is.

There were four CZ75-pattern guns (one Tangfolio and three genuine CZs) used by three different students over the course of the week, and every one of them had reliability problems.

The owners were great students and never let the pistol problems interfere with the class. They had fantastic attitudes and shot very well when their guns worked. But from failures to feed to failures to extract to failures to eject to failures to lock back to premature lock back, we saw the whole spectrum of handgun malfunctions from those guns.

The Glocks in the class didn’t have any consistent problems. Even the two S&W 3rd Generation pistols ran well except for some grip and lubrication hiccups. In fact, the only gun that had more problems was a used, second-hand Para P14.45, and who is surprised by that?

CZ pistols are both popular and successful in the world competition arena. They’re also very common among various militaries throughout the globe. But here in the U.S., they’ve never really earned a serious share of the market. They have a reputation for reliability and durability problems. And after four straight days of watching them choke, I’d say it’s a well deserved reputation.

In fairness, one student got his gun working 100% on day four after replacing the extractor spring. The pistol had a little under 14,000 rounds through it when the troubles began. If that had been the only CZ that suffered such trouble during the classes, it would be excusable. But all four?

The CZ is a shootable gun. The CZ Shadow I shot had an excellent trigger and was accurate enough for me to hit an 8″ range marker at 100yd. The owner (class host Rob Engh) reports that he’s easily averaging 0.17 splits and on some drills turning in 0.14 and even 0.13 splits with that same pistol!

Nonetheless, if a gun can’t be depended upon to go bang when the trigger is pressed, it’s a paperweight. Speed and accuracy mean a lot less when you’re prying a stuck case out from underneath an extractor claw.

I’m sure there will be CZ fans who will talk about their personally owned guns that have gone x-number of rounds without a problem. And I don’t doubt it. But when put to the test under the stress of a high volume shooting class, these guns simply couldn’t make it. Not one, not two, but all four.

Zed is not your friend."
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Old November 6, 2013, 01:05 AM   #60
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Quote:
Then I gave examples, like front sights falling off the same model Ruger many times, or a particular brand having a reputation for detonating .40 cases. Or companies that just generally have a poor rep, like Kimber.
I think you also need to look at the time. Pistols that have consistent issues get fixed. Designs get modified, improved, until the issue goes away.

Beretta92s (M9), for instance. There was an issue with slides and the locking blocks, at one time. Not today.

The M1911A1 Govt model pistol, cal .45, at one time widely held to be rugged, durable, accurate, powerful, and uber reliable. Of course, that was back when only Colt was making Govt models, WWII contract guns were still fairly "young" and the only ammunition was 230gr GI ball or handloads.

Glock got a pretty poor reputation for treating individual consumers with near contempt back when their primary focus was on dominating the police market. Don't hear those complaints much today.

If you are looking for the gun in current production that nobody complains about today, I got no clue. Sorry.
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Old November 6, 2013, 11:17 AM   #61
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44 AMP makes a great point, it's the first thing I thought of when the OP mentioned Beretta 92 locking blocks. The newest (third generation) design has no reported issues I have read about. Like the recoil spring it is a part with a maintenance schedule, but apparently now it actually meets or exceeds that schedule.

Similarly, the Fourth Generation Glocks, which had massive reliability issues in the service-sized (19 and 17) 9mms when first released, seem to have leveled off nicely.
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Old November 6, 2013, 02:30 PM   #62
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I don't think old 92s and gen 4 19s invalidate the basic idea. That's exactly the kind of trends I am talking about.

And whether they have been fixed or not, will a consumer looking for a gun for protection be able to tell a good 19 from a bad one, or is it better and safer to avoid gen 4 in that model?

Sometimes guns aren't toys and it matters if they are likely to be reliable or not.
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Old November 6, 2013, 03:15 PM   #63
mukibetser
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Based purely on personal experience and the guns I happen to own. When I say 0 problems I mean it literally, never had a failure to feed, eject, etc. including in the "breakin period" if there is such a thing:

CZ P01: 1500+ rounds. Only problem occurred in a 2 day defensive pistol class, several FTEs, instructor thought was caused by overlubrication gumming things up.

SIG P226: 1000+ rounds. Occasional failure to lock back on empty. I believe caused by my hand position on the slide release, which I understand happens with the 226, rather than a problem with the gun

Walther PPQ: 500+ rounds. 0 problems

HK P2000: 1200+ rounds: 0 problems

Kahr PM9: 500+ rounds: 0 problems

S&W 1911 Compact ES: 600+ rounds. Frequent failure to feed. Better but not completely fixed after trip back to S&W. I don't consider this gun reliable for carry.

SIG 1911 Tacops: 600+ rounds: 0 problems
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:22 PM   #64
HKFan9
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Quote:
CZs are decent guns but not trouble free. My experiences with my Son's SP-01 has shown me that.

Here is what Todd Green from Pistol Forum posted about CZs:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218

27-Jun-10 – 08:00 by ToddG

"As an instructor, I strive to be a good student. Good students are always learning. And last week in Canada, I learned that CZ pistols (pronounced “see zed” in Canadiese) are as reliable as a Ford.

A Ford Pinto, that is.

There were four CZ75-pattern guns (one Tangfolio and three genuine CZs) used by three different students over the course of the week, and every one of them had reliability problems.

The owners were great students and never let the pistol problems interfere with the class. They had fantastic attitudes and shot very well when their guns worked. But from failures to feed to failures to extract to failures to eject to failures to lock back to premature lock back, we saw the whole spectrum of handgun malfunctions from those guns.

The Glocks in the class didn’t have any consistent problems. Even the two S&W 3rd Generation pistols ran well except for some grip and lubrication hiccups. In fact, the only gun that had more problems was a used, second-hand Para P14.45, and who is surprised by that?

CZ pistols are both popular and successful in the world competition arena. They’re also very common among various militaries throughout the globe. But here in the U.S., they’ve never really earned a serious share of the market. They have a reputation for reliability and durability problems. And after four straight days of watching them choke, I’d say it’s a well deserved reputation.

In fairness, one student got his gun working 100% on day four after replacing the extractor spring. The pistol had a little under 14,000 rounds through it when the troubles began. If that had been the only CZ that suffered such trouble during the classes, it would be excusable. But all four?

The CZ is a shootable gun. The CZ Shadow I shot had an excellent trigger and was accurate enough for me to hit an 8″ range marker at 100yd. The owner (class host Rob Engh) reports that he’s easily averaging 0.17 splits and on some drills turning in 0.14 and even 0.13 splits with that same pistol!

Nonetheless, if a gun can’t be depended upon to go bang when the trigger is pressed, it’s a paperweight. Speed and accuracy mean a lot less when you’re prying a stuck case out from underneath an extractor claw.

I’m sure there will be CZ fans who will talk about their personally owned guns that have gone x-number of rounds without a problem. And I don’t doubt it. But when put to the test under the stress of a high volume shooting class, these guns simply couldn’t make it. Not one, not two, but all four.

Zed is not your friend."

I posted my comment about CZ because it was a known issue with a firearm usually held in high regards, but I have a major issue with this guys logic. Anything in life simply can't be judged by one example, him being an instructor and an expert should know this. I have seen my fair share of Glocks fail on the training range, I don't go around telling people they are poorly made problematic guns.
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:41 PM   #65
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Which combat pistols does everyone agree have no issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HKFan9 View Post
I posted my comment about CZ because it was a known issue with a firearm usually held in high regards, but I have a major issue with this guys logic. Anything in life simply can't be judged by one example, him being an instructor and an expert should know this. I have seen my fair share of Glocks fail on the training range, I don't go around telling people they are poorly made problematic guns.
According to the author's conversation in the comments, these 4 CZs are simply an example, not the whole basis for his opinion. He claims to have seen more CZ issues in many training sessions than issues from top tier brands. He names Glock, Sig, HK, and Beretta as notably more reliable.

I love the looks of CZs, but I've also seen too many issues to trust them as much as a USP or 92FS. Others' milage may vary.

Last edited by LockedBreech; November 6, 2013 at 10:21 PM.
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Old November 7, 2013, 03:17 AM   #66
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USP's and 92's have their fair share of issues as well. I get to deal with them all more often than I care to remember. USP was my first handgun, but I couldn't get over how awful the trigger was. I did just have a .45acp USP come back with the guy blew the frame literally in half the slide and barrel were all fine but he basically blew the entire rear half of the frame off along with the back strap of the grip.

This is obviously not an occurring issue with the USP, I suspect a bad hand load but he swore it was from factory ammo. HK replaced it for him at a charge.

CZ's used to sheer their slide stops, but its honestly been awhile since I have seen one do it. I own a CZ-75B I bought used for $300 and it has been a great pistol. I know a few IPSC shooters who swear by them. I would not hesitate to own one based on one instructor being bias against them.

I understand he states it was over multiple classes, but the fact he or you lumps a EAA/Tangfolio together with the CZ's makes me question how much he really knows. If those are the standards we are going by I can lump the Taurus PT92's I have gotten back with issues with the Beretta 92's.... I don't think I have the banwidth to go into detail on their issues.

I got a chance to shoot all the CZ's at a closed range session with two of their reps. I watched about 200 people run magazine after magazine through their demo guns with out any hitches. I shot a few mags in the ones I was interested in, however once the Rep started taking out the Dan Wesson 1911's I found myself only shooting them.
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Old November 7, 2013, 04:51 AM   #67
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CZ75 all the way

I shoot a CZ75B and have had no problems the thing shoots well with any shaped head of bullet. I have put rounds through it that jam even glocks and to be honest i probably should not have put them through my gun either. Its not a fussy gun. I have thought of getting something else but noticed that when shooting IPSC I look at the other guys guns and many shoot STI's Glocks and so on. I think to myself maybe an STI is the way to go but then the guys with the STI's and Glocks seem to loose a lot of time on the range clearing jams where as if I have one jam in three meetings its a lot.

So I have a dilema in deciding what my next gun should be cause there is nothing worse than struggling with jams all day long because the gun is tempramental.
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Old November 7, 2013, 05:56 AM   #68
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I'm pretty sure Glocks's are universally loved.
I just polled 100% of the men sitting in my living room, and I think they make a pretty nice firearm.

In all seriousness, I don't think there is a gun that everyone agrees on.
And furthermore, I don't think there should be.
Different people have different needs and different likes/dislikes. That's why there are so many options out there, and, generally, even options within individual brands and models.

Statistically, there are several brands that everyone - at least everyone capable of objectively looking at statistics - should be able to agree are very unlikely to have issues.

In alphabetical order, a few that come to mind are:
Beretta, Colt, CZ, FN, HK, Glock, Ruger, Sig, S&W, Springfield, Walther

However, every brand has it's detractors for one reason or another:
A lot of people can't make the distinction between personal preference and objective superiority/inferiority.
And it's impossible to manufacture a mechanical devise that has a 0% failure rate.

If you're trying to select a gun for your self the best method is going to be to try some different options. If you have a friend who shoot's and who's opinion you trust ask them for some suggestions.
One problem with asking this kind of question on an internet forum is you're going to get an overload of opinions. It's a good starting point, but all we can do is tell you what we like. You're the only one that's going to know what you like.
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Old November 9, 2013, 02:11 AM   #69
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I think my CZ SP-01 Tactical is awesome. I haven't owned it near as long as I have owned my Stoeger Cougar. I have complete trust in my Cougar even though I don't think anyone would place it in the same class as my CZ.

I don't care for S&W, Ruger and Glock. Not that there is anything wrong with them(there isn't), they just don't float my boat and I really cannot tell you why. I think there is an unconscious bias in all of us toward certain brands or types of firearms.
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