The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old November 1, 2013, 08:08 AM   #26
Sarge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 4,911
The Montana Gold 40 cal. bullet review in Post 24 above is mine. It's not a bad bulk bullet; but if I were just loading a couple hundred rounds for defense and I wanted a hollow-point, I'd use the Hornady XTP. Good all around bullet in any caliber, with some expansion and excellent penetration.
__________________
I'm inclined to think if a man hasn't gotten his point across in 4912 attempts, 4913 probably isn't going to do it.

Last edited by Sarge; November 1, 2013 at 08:27 AM.
Sarge is offline  
Old November 1, 2013, 08:30 AM   #27
bedbugbilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Posts: 2,312
I have taken CCW classes in two different states - AZ and MI. It gets brought up each time in regards to carrying reloads for SD. Everytime, it has been advised not to do it for the implications that have already been given.

I'll shoot reloads all day long at cans, paper and critters - but for SD rounds in the handgun I CCW - factory only. I'd much rather spend a little $ on factory loaded SD ammo than to save a couple of $ and perhaps have it come back to haunt me if I should ever be unfortunate enough to have to defend myself.

But - it's a personal decision . . .
__________________
If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63
bedbugbilly is offline  
Old November 1, 2013, 08:44 AM   #28
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 1,026
I tried to resist the temptation to attack the premise, which I took as needing help sourcing defensive type hollow points in 9mm. Unless addressing that directly, I thought I would be off in the weeds, i.e. hijacking.
Real Gun is offline  
Old November 1, 2013, 09:46 AM   #29
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 782
The "myth" that factory ammo is better than reloads is just a myth. The "myth" that a "reloaded" self defense bullet is any more or less lethal than a factory bullet is just a myth. Those myths are both propagated by ignorance of; facts, case law and the legal burden of proof.

And, yes, I have testified in court and have been endorsed by courts as a ballistics and shooting reconstruction expert. I think if you research the foundations of the myths, case law and actual court testimony, you will agree that these myths should fall like the house of cards they really are.

I too resisted attacking the premise of the myth, but it just keeps coming back. I will not post on the myths again, so if you want more, just send me a message.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us

Last edited by MarkCO; November 1, 2013 at 10:52 AM.
MarkCO is offline  
Old November 1, 2013, 12:19 PM   #30
rodfac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,529
Most professional trainers in my experience do not recommend use of hand loads for SD purposes...the reasons given had to do with legal issues and quality control. I subscribe to that recommendation and carry with good SD ammunition, praying that I'll never be forced to use it for the purpose it was designed. I load with what our local LEO agencies use.

In that regard, I've just finished Massad Ayoob's, "Concealed Carry" by Gun Digest books. His remarks in the chapter on SD ammunition are well worth the price of the book.

Best Regards, Rod
__________________
Our Flag does not fly because the wind blows against it, it is moved instead, by the dying breath of our patriots in uniform. Our Freedom is not free, it's been paid for many times over.
USAF Forward Air Controller, 5th Spl Forces,
An Loc, lll Corps, RVN, 69-70, Vietnam Vet '69-'73
rodfac is offline  
Old November 1, 2013, 09:12 PM   #31
LAH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2002
Location: In The Hardwoods
Posts: 965
I only shoot factory 22LR, everything else is handloads regardless of use.
LAH is offline  
Old November 1, 2013, 09:24 PM   #32
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,405
I think the Hornady XTP is a good SD hollow point that isn't too expensive to reload.

I load target rounds for my .45 acp with Hornady 185 gr HAP's, which are a hollow point based on the XTP but designed for target shooting.

I carry Hornady Critical Defense 185 gr. It makes for a seamless transition from target ammo to carry ammo, so it's as good as practicing with what you carry.

I bought a couple hundred XTP's the other day because I found a local deal on them, but I have yet to decide if I'll load them purely for targets or also carry them.

Loading your target ammo with a similar bullet of the same weight, to the same OAL, with a similar powder charge makes your time at the range more relevant to staying proficient with your carry ammo. HAP's and XTP's are great for that.
__________________
"I don't understand all that I know"

"I never said half the crap that people on the internet claim I said" - Abraham Lincoln
steveNChunter is online now  
Old November 2, 2013, 10:57 AM   #33
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,270
I am with Mr. LAH........
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old November 2, 2013, 11:00 AM   #34
LAH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2002
Location: In The Hardwoods
Posts: 965
Quote:
I am with Mr. LAH
Among the hard headed fer sur'.
LAH is offline  
Old November 2, 2013, 11:10 AM   #35
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 1,026
But the topic is what 9mm SD bullet to buy. Got any suggestions?
Real Gun is offline  
Old November 2, 2013, 11:54 AM   #36
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,270
I have some thoughts, not guesses

If civilian, might I recommend the conventional Remington 115g JHP, loaded over 3N37 or WAP/Silhouette, or HS6, for a readily controllable 1370fps minimum?
If insistent on a 'modern' bullet, I recommend the 115g and 124g Speer Gold Dot, same powders.

These bullets have a significant and proven record of effective performance on humans.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old November 2, 2013, 01:24 PM   #37
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,405
Real gun, I know my post was about reloading for my .45, but they make the XTP in 124 and 147 gr for 9mm. Either should make a fine SD bullet to reload.

The Speer Golt Dot is great too. I've had some of the ammo but never loaded the bullets.
__________________
"I don't understand all that I know"

"I never said half the crap that people on the internet claim I said" - Abraham Lincoln
steveNChunter is online now  
Old November 3, 2013, 06:59 AM   #38
Magnum Mike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2007
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 334
Quote:
would not want to be on the stand in front of a jury with a prosecutor implying that I wanted to create the perfect killing load
Total hog wash! Use of DEADLY FORCE is just that!!
I carry the same load as I practice with!
You will have other things to worry about in a shooting.
Time to CLOSE this thread!!
Magnum Mike is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 08:39 AM   #39
LOLBELL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2010
Location: Fayette AL
Posts: 102
I use Hornady's 115 XTP. It is a good bullet at a good price. I have not used these for their intended purpose and hope to the Good Lord in Heaven I never have to, but seeing what they will do to a gallon water jug and in wet phone books I trust they will suffice if ever called upon.
__________________
A Bumble Bee is considerable faster than a John Deere tractor
LOLBELL is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 09:07 AM   #40
Mavrick79
Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2013
Posts: 89
I'm sorry but the argument of a handload being possibly more lethal than factory ammo is weak at best. You could put the hottest most lethal 9mm handload up against a larger caliber using plain old factory ammo such as a .44mag and it wouldn't come close in comparison.

So if it really is true that your going to hang for using a handload then your also going to hang for not using the smallest caliber available, think about it.
Mavrick79 is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 09:22 AM   #41
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,300
Mavrick, I have thought about it and you are correct. IMO the reason caliber/cartridge size has not been brought up is that Massad Ayoob sells and endorses factory SD ammunition. Wouldn't put any money in his pocket to preach the evils of Big Guns vs Small Guns a a SD weapon of choice. His writings and opinions are based on selling Factory Ammo, not keeping us out of jail.
steve4102 is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 09:37 AM   #42
born2climb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2013
Posts: 140
Only in America do criminals have the luxury of being killed in the line of duty with designated rounds. So if you have to beat a burglar to death with a claw hammer...is it significant that you have a factory handle in it, or is one you carved out of a freshly-cut hickory admissible? Criminal attacks victim...victim shoots perp in self-defense...prosecution attacks load used in victim's firearm...they ought to hand out medals for that kind of STUPID.
__________________
Don't invest in idiots....the market's flooded!!!
born2climb is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 09:48 AM   #43
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrick79
I'm sorry but the argument of a handload being possibly more lethal than factory ammo is weak at best. You could put the hottest most lethal 9mm handload up against a larger caliber using plain old factory ammo such as a .44mag and it wouldn't come close in comparison.

So if it really is true that your going to hang for using a handload then your also going to hang for not using the smallest caliber available, think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
Mavrick, I have thought about it and you are correct. IMO the reason caliber/cartridge size has not been brought up is that Massad Ayoob sells and endorses factory SD ammunition. Wouldn't put any money in his pocket to preach the evils of Big Guns vs Small Guns a a SD weapon of choice. His writings and opinions are based on selling Factory Ammo, not keeping us out of jail.
Well, I've thought about it, and Mavrick is incorrect. The argument that a "handload is deadlier" is only one reason that using handloads is a bad idea. Further, just because neither you nor Mavrick agree with the argument does not mean that it could not make a SD shooter's defense more complicated and, consequently, more expensive. With that said, while a prosecutor could make the "loading up a super-deadly bullet" argument, that's not the issue that really concerns me. The issue that worries me is the matter of gunshot residue, the rules of evidence, and expert testimony. I explain this in more detail here.

I do not sell factory ammunition, nor make any money off factory ammunition sales.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 10:26 AM   #44
born2climb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2013
Posts: 140
So we've devolved to the point that a person has the right to self-defense only when using a politically acceptable weapon? Where is common sense in all this? Who got to decide that a murderer/robber/rapist had such "rights"?
__________________
Don't invest in idiots....the market's flooded!!!
born2climb is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 11:18 AM   #45
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,285
Quote:
Originally posted by Real Gun :

But the topic is what 9mm SD bullet to buy.
Actually, the first question asked in the OP is "does anyone reload for EDC?"

Like many others here, only ammo I personally use in my firearms, other than .17 and .22 rimfire, are my reloads. For huntin', plinkin' or SD/HD, I use what has proven to work the best in the intended firearm. Other than for plinkin', payin' a little more for something that works better seems to be the smart choice. For hunting and SD/HD, very seldom was the first load recipe/component combo I tried the best. Regardless tho, the key to accuracy in my handguns has always been more related to practice than to the ammo.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 12:31 PM   #46
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 1,026
Quote:
Actually, the first question asked in the OP is "does anyone reload for EDC?"
That's a yes/no answer or implied context rather than an invitation to debate loading for SD. It prequalifies a person to answer the real question of what bullet is both recommended and value priced, which would not include the oft-mentioned Gold Dot, which I find at about 22 cents each rather than the 13 cents each that I located and suggested as something to check out. See earlier post.

I do load for "EDC" but only for one gun, a Ruger SP101 .357 3", which is too punishing in my hands using readily available, off-the-shelf ammo. I am not one who shoots .38 Special in a .357. Even +P are too mild for me, so I am loading in between using non-magnum powders in .357 cases.
Real Gun is offline  
Old November 3, 2013, 06:26 PM   #47
Gster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2012
Location: N.central Pa.
Posts: 247
"does anyone reload for EDC?"

Yes. No matter what I'm carrying, be it my .45, .40, or 9mm. They all are stuffed with XTPs.
__________________
Gun control means: Being able to hit what you are shooting at.
Gster is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 06:43 AM   #48
45long
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2011
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 101
my reloads

I know that with very clean or new brass, a fresh lot of primers that have been sealed to the case and Horandy XTPs with a heavy crimp. Yes they would be better than just using off the self stuff because I do extensive research on my personal gun with this round and have used it for hunting ,so I KNOW it's potential.

BUT, having said all that, I'd still use off the shelf just because of the chance it could be used against me in court by a shmuck lawyer trying to make a name for himself.

---and I too would love to know the actual times it's actually been used in court..but not just the reloads but other "key" words like MAGNUMMMM, +PPPPP, POWER POINT,SABRE,HYDRO-SHOCKKKKK,GRIZZLY,ect... You get the picture. Theatrics can play a role in court , especially to un-knowledgeable people.
__________________
N0MJP
45long is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 06:46 AM   #49
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by born2climb
So we've devolved to the point that a person has the right to self-defense only when using a politically acceptable weapon? Where is common sense in all this? Who got to decide that a murderer/robber/rapist had such "rights"?
No, that entirely mischaracterizes the issue. The defender has not been deprived of his right to SD, nor is it illegal to use handloads for SD or HD. Just because something is legal doesn't make it a good idea, though.

As others have noted, though, that really wasn't the original question.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman

Last edited by Spats McGee; November 4, 2013 at 04:23 PM.
Spats McGee is offline  
Old November 4, 2013, 08:23 AM   #50
LOLBELL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2010
Location: Fayette AL
Posts: 102
Quote:
So we've devolved to the point that a person has the right to self-defense only when using a politically acceptable weapon? Where is common sense in all this? Who got to decide that a murderer/robber/rapist had such "rights"
It's not about rights. It's about the Almighty Dollar. There is not a lawyer out there that would bring up, in a court of law, the projectile used to dispatch a bad guy if he was concerned with your rights. His concern is your money, and how much of it he can acquire for himself.
__________________
A Bumble Bee is considerable faster than a John Deere tractor
LOLBELL is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12738 seconds with 7 queries