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Old October 31, 2013, 02:49 PM   #26
RickB
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I'd never choose a conventional DA/SA pistol over either a SA or striker-fired design; I don't want to "worry about mastering two different trigger pulls", to sort of turn around some of the comments above. Either way, thumb safety or DA/SA trigger transition, it's a matter of training.
I have relatively little experience with the P220, and that involved a full-house Grayguns custom, so maybe I'd be even less likely to prefer a stock P220 to the 1911s with which I have a few decades of experience.
The bore line of the P220 is too high, relative to most .45s on the market, making it harder to shoot well, the grip is not nearly as comfortable as a 1911s, and there's not much you can do about it, while the 1911 has myriad alternatives available for the grip safety, mainspring housing, trigger length, etc., so the gun fits you, rather than you having to adapt to the gun.
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:07 PM   #27
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Relatively speaking, a Sig is lighter, more drop safe, often more accurate, more reliable, more ambidextrous and more likely to fire when you need it to and not fire when you don't.

For a defense gun, which you may have to yank out of a holster and fire while getting the snot knocked out of you, simple DA guns are probably the best. And having a little firm resistance to firing by way of a firm trigger is totally unlikely to hurt you but may well prevent an ND. More people should consider NY triggers for the Glock carry guns for this reason.
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:19 PM   #28
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I have seen well seasoned 1911 shooters occasionally forget to swipe the safety off...imagine forgetting in a "even tenths of a second count" situation?

Having both platforms, I always carry the Sig.
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:25 PM   #29
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A quality 1911. Doesn't IPSC prove this is the fastest bullets on target gun weekly?

That said, if you are going to spend under $1500 or so on your 1911, the 220 will likely have an edge in reliability.

I would rather have the 4lb everytime pull of a 1911, than whatever a sig might do for me. Not to mention thinner frame and gunsmiths who know what to do if it were to ever quit for some reason.
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:28 PM   #30
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1911 by far if you're willing to put in the effort to become a proficient shooter, Sig if you're not willing to practice as much.

If you're the kind that has to worry about not practicing enough to remember to release the safety, stay with the Sig.

There's a reason that 1911's dominate any kind of shooting test that incorporates speed and accuracy.
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:32 PM   #31
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I'd never choose a conventional DA/SA pistol over either a SA or striker-fired design; I don't want to "worry about mastering two different trigger pulls", to sort of turn around some of the comments above. Either way, thumb safety or DA/SA trigger transition, it's a matter of training.
Though I like the 1911, I'd choose a "conventional DA/SA pistol" in a heartbeat over "either a SA or striker-fired design". As you say, training makes the question of which configuration is best moot and the supposed drawback of transitioning between a da pull to a sa trigger pull is obviated with proper training and practice.
The extreme simplicity (no safety to disengage-though practice with swiping the safety of a 1911 or similar pistol "off" poses no liability in terms of speed to shot) and reliability of the SIG design makes it my carry gun of choice.
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:37 PM   #32
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I have seen well seasoned 1911 shooters occasionally forget to swipe the safety off...
Either they are not as well seasoned as they are thought to be, or have adulterated their training, and thus their muscle memory, with foreign systems.

"OH Crap! He's beating the snot out of me!" time is no time to be figuring out which gun with which trigger system you are totin' today.

ONE system. ONE drawstroke. ..... if you drill it enough, your hands don't panic, won't forget, they'll just do it when the brain says, SHOOTSHOOTSHOOT!
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:40 PM   #33
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1911 by far if you're willing to put in the effort to become a proficient shooter, Sig if you're not willing to practice as much.
..... and a Glock if you are unwilling to even bother to maintain the gun ......
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:46 PM   #34
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I would opt for the Sig 220. IMO the whole gripe with mastering two different trigger pulls and transitioning from DA/SA is way overblown. I prefer DA/SA over any other trigger type. No safeties to worry about, and the benefit of a SA trigger for all subsequent shots, what more could you want? I would argue that training yourself to disengage a safety is far more troublesome than having a DA trigger for your first trigger pull.
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:52 PM   #35
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Please keep in mind that defensive shooting has only a little bit in common with IPSC or much of any kind of timed shooting event.

It will be a short range, point shooting struggle for your life, not a scene from Tombstone.


One of the weirdest ideas that tends to come up regarding 1911s is that you should be a proficient, practiced shooter to use one, yet they are the cure to the problem of not being proficient at pulling a DA trigger.

Anyone can hit the target with a DA Sig at close range. Anyone who is going to bother to practice with their firearm can accurately fire a DA Sig at longer ranges. Lot's of special operations troops certainly choose 1911s, but the SEALs, SAS and everybody else are using Sigs and other DA/SA guns. Practice is apparently the most important part of hitting targets.
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Old October 31, 2013, 04:59 PM   #36
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I prefer DA/SA over any other trigger type. No safeties to worry about, and the benefit of a SA trigger for all subsequent shots, what more could you want?
A consistent trigger pull.

If you don't mind "shot cocking", then the DA/SA is for you. SA is faster for hits on target, as the first one hits.

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I would argue that training yourself to disengage a safety is far more troublesome than having a DA trigger for your first trigger pull.
Not at all ..... unless maybe you already have muscle memory to unlearn.

Swiping the safety off (or on, for that matter) comes so natural to me that when I'm shooting a gun that does not have one, I still do it- it's not a conscious act, but part of the draw, part of going to low ready ..... like changing the way you are leaning when the bike starts to tip, you don't think about it, you just do it.
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Old October 31, 2013, 05:17 PM   #37
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Whichever you shoot best is the best gun. Both are single stacks, hold 7-8 rounds of ammo. Sigs aren't more reliable, durable, or accurate than similarly priced 1911s. Except 1911s made by Sig, those are junk.

The SRT trigger is one of the better triggers this side of a 1911 in SA mode.

If you want true 1911 functionality, there are SAO P220s out there.

The thumb safety doesn't slow things down, or make them more complex. It's all in the training.

In over 20 years of shooting 1911s, I've never failed to flip the thumb safety when drawing to fire. I have tried to flip the safety on guns that didn't have one, but that's another story.
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Old October 31, 2013, 05:29 PM   #38
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A consistent trigger pull.
Like I said, this whole consistent trigger pull thing is way overblown IMO. I have never had a single problem with transitioning from DA/SA. Maybe it's just me, but from my experience it's anything but a disadvantage. Also, my Beretta has one DA pull and 15 consistent SA pulls. It's not like it's switching off from DA to SA every other shot, which is why I never got the big deal people make about it. If you don't like DA/SA's, cool, but don't act like it is a disadvantage just because you don't shoot them well.

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If you don't mind "shot cocking", then the DA/SA is for you. SA is faster for hits on target, as the first one hits.
Better tell all those revolver shooters that there guns are putting them at a disadvantage. I would wager that a seasoned revolver shooter can put a shot on target just as fast as a seasoned 1911 shooter, I would be willing to put money on it.

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Swiping the safety off (or on, for that matter) comes so natural to me
Transitioning from DA to SA comes natural to me. I don't shoot striker fired or SA guns any better than I do DA/SA, because of that I have no reason to seek out a consistent trigger pull.

Last edited by Dragline45; October 31, 2013 at 06:00 PM.
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Old October 31, 2013, 05:37 PM   #39
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If you want true 1911 functionality, there are SAO P220s out there.
The 220's still have a swinging trigger, no?

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Better tell all those revolver shooters that there guns are putting them at a disadvantage.
I think you don't understand what I meant by "shot cocking" ..... Col. Cooper investigated this problem, what? 30 years ago ..... It makes interesting reading, if you can find it. Google might be your friend.


Though the DA revolver guys do have a longer, heavier pull than the 1911 guys, it is at least the same every pull ....... FWIW, I have a revolver or two, and when I need to make hits in a hurry, I shoot them SA .... no sense in wasting time with mikes.
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Old October 31, 2013, 05:54 PM   #40
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IMO the whole gripe with mastering two different trigger pulls and transitioning from DA/SA is way overblown. I prefer DA/SA over any other trigger type. No safeties to worry about, and the benefit of a SA trigger for all subsequent shots, what more could you want? I would argue that training yourself to disengage a safety is far more troublesome than having a DA trigger for your first trigger pull.
Exactly.
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Old October 31, 2013, 05:56 PM   #41
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SA trigger for all subsequent shots, what more could you want?
SA for every shot, especially the first one!
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Old October 31, 2013, 06:01 PM   #42
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Except 1911s made by Sig, those are junk.

This ridiculous allegation doesn't go very far in establishing your credibility in my mind. In my experience, SIG 1911 pistols are no more or less reliable and accurate as any other equivalent Model 1911 pistol that I've shot-and I've shot more than my fair share of them over the past several decades.
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Old October 31, 2013, 06:23 PM   #43
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What makes a 1911 what it is ....is the trigger....its not hinged like a Sig trigger ( even the single action only Sig's are still hinged triggers ) and the hinged triggers move thru an arc ..as they break and reset....

vs the 1911 trigger....slides straight back into the frame and straight forward to reset...and when properly made and adjusted ...its a system that can't be surpassed....

Sig 220's are not terrible triggers...but they're very different / because they're hinged.
-----------------
Comparing a single action Sig 220 to a 1911...is still not a direct comparison because the triggers are so different. To me, that's what makes this decision for me - hands down a 1911.
---------------
Dimensions on a Sig 220 are really close to a 5" 1911...and if they're both steel they weigh about the same....the 1911 is just a little longer.../but that's because the Sig 220 has a 4.4" barrel vs a 5"....if you go to an alloy frame in the Sig 220 ...and on the 1911 ...again they weigh about the same ....but the 1911 is a little thinner at about 1.3" wide vs the 220 that is 1.6" wide...

but I'm suggesting they're are close to the same dimensions...
------------
I suggest you make your decision based on the triggers --- that's where a Sig 220 and a 1911 are very different !

In the hands of most experienced shooters...I think the 1911 will be faster from the holster to the first shot on target ...and a little faster to a triple tap on target...( 1911 trigger vs hinged Sig 220 trigger )....1911 trigger has way less travel ....
---------
Everyone should carry and shoot whatever they like the best - not what I like...but despite the heavy vote in the discussion for the Sig 220's .....I'm still keeping my Wilson Combat, CQB model, 5", in .45 acp as my primary carry gun....

but if you don't want to carry cocked and locked in a Sig SAO or a 1911...then I understand the rationale to go to the Sig DA/SA trigger with the decocker....whatever makes you the most comfortable.
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Old October 31, 2013, 06:55 PM   #44
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"Please keep in mind that defensive shooting.... will be a short range, point shooting struggle for your life, not a scene from Tombstone." [RX-79G]

Hmm, like the scene from Tombstone in which the finest close range gunfight ever put to film was shot. Doc Holliday vs Johnny Ringo.

"Why, Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."

I have an equal number of 1911s and Sigs, when I was younger I preferred the 1911, but today, if it comes to fast draw I'll take the Sig. Re concern about the DA/SA transition, well, just thumb back the hammer for the first shot... worked for Doc Holliday, Wyatt Earp too.
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Old October 31, 2013, 08:46 PM   #45
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No safety- while safeties keep the trigger from firing when you don't want to fire, they can also keep the trigger from firing when you want to fire.
You read this a lot. My response is, if you are the type to start blazing away before you have gathered your wits enough to thumb your safety off I certainly wouldn't want to be your partner.
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Old October 31, 2013, 08:51 PM   #46
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but the SEALs, SAS and everybody else are using Sigs and other DA/SA guns
But isn't that primarily because their sidearm is there for backup, so that high-capacity in a compact platform is what they are looking for? And they are far more likely to need the high capacity than the rest of us are.
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Old October 31, 2013, 08:59 PM   #47
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I've got 'em both, but usually carry a J-Frame, Smith M60 for size constraints...plus it doesn't try to pull my pants down in public!!!

Of the two you mentioned, it's the 1911 for me....thinner through the grips and yes it's a factor as the Sig feels like the fat end of a baseball bat to me...

1911's always have the same trigger from shot to shot; good or bad, it's the same and you learn it. The DA/SA Sigs need some concentrated training time to get that 2nd shot grouping with the first. Too, a 1911's trigger can be tuned to a responsible level and I'm not talking about 2 lb. wonders either. With the adrenalin running, I much prefer the old military standard of 4.5 lbs at a minimum.

For those that have a problem with the 1911's thumb safety, it's a training issue....like the decocker on a DA/SA Sig...and no problem for trained CCW use. Lastly, I like the .45 ACP round for all the usual reasons. I tried a SS Sig 220 in .45 today, in a friend's gunshop; liked the trigger in both modes, but found the grip just too round for my liking, about the same as my P226. It's a nice duty gun, but about as handy as an unabridged dictionary for CCW. If I were serious about carrying one, I'd forgo all other types of controls till I got that DA/SA trigger system imbedded in my muscle memory.

The 1911, a good one like Ruger's latest SR1911 CMD (the Commander length one), is a fine choice if you can bear the weight...powerful, compact, at about the limit for recoil for a normal man, it's the king of personal weapons.

JMHO, Rod
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Old November 1, 2013, 04:46 AM   #48
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IMO the whole gripe with mastering two different trigger pulls and transitioning from DA/SA is way overblown. I prefer DA/SA over any other trigger type. No safeties to worry about, and the benefit of a SA trigger for all subsequent shots, what more could you want? I would argue that training yourself to disengage a safety is far more troublesome than having a DA trigger for your first trigger pull.
IMO the whole gripe with training yourself to disengage a safety is way overblown. Unless you have some sort of weird grip, the safety is right where your thumb is supposed to be. How many of you guys can't get your gun out of a thumb break holster? Your thumb is there anyway.

I shot with Glocks for years before I switched to 1911s. To be perfectly honest, it took a couple hours of practice with a 1911 before I started using that for competition.
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Old November 1, 2013, 06:28 AM   #49
In memory of dad
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1911

I going get flamed on here by the old generation and there workhorse 1911
Watch it there, Pup. I love the 1911, but I would vote for the Sig as I, too, prefer the DA/SA to cocked & locked!
Lol I know spring chicken myself. Been around long enough to remember when sig was imported thru browning at one time and 1911, high power and wheel guns was the staple of carry at one time ! Wish I was younger though ? Lol
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Old November 1, 2013, 07:26 AM   #50
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I have seen well seasoned 1911 shooters occasionally forget to swipe the safety off...
Either they are not as well seasoned as they are thought to be, or have adulterated their training, and thus their muscle memory, with foreign systems.
Or they have just had an experience unlike any they have ever had before...
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