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Old November 9, 2013, 09:24 PM   #26
Boomer58cal
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Plus a semi-auto can be fired MUCH faster than a pump.
The difference is only in fractions of a second. Inside 10 yards a semi-auto has a slight edge. Any further than that and you can pump faster than you can move between targets.

Personally I'll take the reliability of a pump every time.

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Old November 9, 2013, 10:43 PM   #27
chauqg
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Have 870 with 3", skeet, ribbed trap, and now 18.5". Have shot tens of thousands of rounds through it in all configurations. It is my & wife's go to gun when HD is the issue. She does not shoot much, but knows how to sit in the corner of room and hit what she is aiming at....often and without hesitation and much skill. She will kill any intruder. I fully depend on our 870 as it has never misfired, jammed, nor given me any reason to choose another weapon for HD.....and I have several.

You can't go wrong unless you are on the other end of the barrel.
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Old November 10, 2013, 01:58 AM   #28
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Boomer58cal wrote:
The difference is only in fractions of a second.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion Boomer.

I invite you to view these below video links and compare the rapid firing of the semi-auto Remington model 11 shotgun vs the rapid firing of the Remington model 870 pump shotgun.

6 rds rapid fired from a Remington model 11 shotgun. (I can fire my Remington 11 just as fast as the guy in this video, and I am 60 years old, so there is no professional Jerry Miculek speed like, about that shooter).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTwdRl7pqIw

Here's another Remington 11 being rapid fired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvwIb1_LmyA

Now gauge that semi-auto speed against the speed of this Remington 870 pump being "rapid fired".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pz9oN0maik

Here's another video of another Rem 870 pump being "rapid fired"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr88pLhyuzY

As you can see, the 870 pump action shooters were working their pumps as fast as they could. But it is obvious they were much less as fast in firing them than the semi-auto shooters.

Quote:
Boomer58cal wrote:
Inside 10 yards a semi-auto has a slight edge. Any further than that and you can pump faster than you can move between targets.
The OP said he was looking to buy his first home defense shotgun. I don't know too many average homes that have rooms that are open to over 10 yards (30 feet) long to where you would have 10 yards between targets you were tracking inside an average home.

As we see, the semi-auto has much more than just a "fraction of a second" in firing speed over the pump action shotgun, as the above videos illustrate. Plus once the first round is chambered in a semi-auto, there is no possibility of accidentally "short stroking" the pump action in a stressful situation to where you don't chamber a shell like is possible to do with a pump action shotgun.

The "long recoil action" of the recoiling barrel (and bolt) in the Remington 11 is also responsible for soaking up felt recoil and thus faster recovery time than a pump action shotgun which doesn't have that felt recoil reduction. One of my Remington model 11 shotguns has even less felt recoil than my other one, since it also has a Cutts Compensator on it that further reduces felt recoil.

I say "felt" recoil, because the semi-auto, long recoil action (moving/recoiling barrel & bolt compressing springs) Rem 11 is still reacting to the same amount of recoil as a pump action shotgun that's barrel and bolt do not move rearward under recoil, but because the moving barrel, bolt and springs of the semi-auto Rem 11 is "soaking up" that recoil, you don't have as much "felt" recoil hitting your shoulder as you do with a pump action shotgun. Thus less shock to your shoulder, more enjoyable to shoot, and faster recovery times between shots.

That's my opinion based on my actual personal shooting experience and the proof we can all see in the videos.


.
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Last edited by Bill Akins; November 10, 2013 at 04:08 AM.
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Old November 10, 2013, 08:25 AM   #29
Waspinator
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All this over pump vs auto.... you can always go a third way.

Rossi 28 Ga Circuit Judge. Light recoil of 28 gauge and the action of a revolver. No worries about short strokes or auto jamming!! 5 shots of shotgun in a revolver type action .. who can ask for more!

http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=
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Old November 10, 2013, 09:30 AM   #30
amd6547
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I agree with Bill...
I have owned two Model 11 riot guns. Both were capable of firing all five shells so quickly that all five empties were in the air in a line from the ejection port.
My current HD shotgun is a Beretta 1201FP Detroit PD surplus riot gun.
It uses the Benelli inertia lock, and function incredibly fast.
Oh...and never a jam from any of these semiauto shotguns.
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Old November 10, 2013, 10:33 AM   #31
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It's really give or take and the only correct answer is get a pistol. If you don't know what you're doing and don't take the time to learn either can fail on you. Shooting targets both will be reliable with the pump maybe not being as finicky with ammo selection. (I say maybe due to the 870's chamber). In a pressure situation I believe the semi would hold an advantage for someone with less experience. Only because of the person. Since pump is driven by the person the action itself may be more reliable but it's driving force can create problems. Both short stroking and bad timing or not enough force on the return stroke can cause a pump to jamb, stove pipe or lock up. A semi, while not immune, is less affected by the human factor. Even experienced shotgunners can have these problems when put in a stressful situation. A semi has the simple advantage of removing some of the human factor.

It's not perfect. That same ability of mass dumping the mag tube isn't really a good thing with an inexperienced person. The pump makes you slow down.

I would like to bring something to your attention which emphasizes what a person with minimal training is a high stress enviroment can do.

"Some soldiers were so stressed that they loaded their rifles time after time but they never fired. (After one battle, the battle of Gettysburg, the discarded 37,574 rifles were collected and sent to Washington to be inspected and reissued. Approx. 24,000 of them were still loaded, and 75% of them had 2 to 10 rounds in the barrel).**"One rifle had been stuffed to the top with 23 rounds!"

http://planetar65.blogspot.com/2012/...ivil.html?m=1#!

That was during the civil war. Soldiers would forget to put their primers in and with everything going on, they would not realise they hadn't shot and simply keep reloading.
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Old November 10, 2013, 08:22 PM   #32
Nickel Plated
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I would say definitely give the Winchester SXP some consideration. I own the field model (28" ribbed barrel, 4+1 capacity. The Defender has 5+1 capacity with 18" barrel) and it's an awesome shotgun. I've handled and shot 870s and 500s. Not much but a bit. And I can honestly say the Winchester shoots, looks, and feels better than either. Best pump gun in the $300ish price range IMO.

Don't let the "Made in Turkey" stamp worry you. I guess if you MUST have a U.S. made shotgun, then nothing can be done about that. Me, sure I'd prefer to have "Made in the USA" stamped on the barrel, but a good shotgun is a good shotgun regardless where it comes from.

IDK about the extracting issues you heard. My guess is either they were using cheapo bottom of the barrel ammo or they got a lemon gun. It happens, heck, Remington has had their fair share of failures to extract. Mine however has gone through about 500 rounds of Winchester SuperX target loads and Federal target loads. Both cycled just fine. Also Winchesters are reported as being the few shotguns who will cycle the 1 3/4" mini shells reliably.
The Winchester is nothing new. it has plenty of time under it's belt with the 1200 and 1300. The SXP is simply an improvement and evolution of that design.

I hear plenty of stories of guys going to the shop thinking "I'll handle the 500 and 870 and decide which I like" then notice that SXP on the shelf and think "What the hell, might as well see how this feels". Guess what they end up leaving the store with?

Anyway, I love my Winnie and will be getting a second one soon. it's just too much fun emptying the mag with that speed pump.
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Old November 10, 2013, 09:00 PM   #33
sigp226wgerman
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Double Barrel. During a home invasion go out onto the balcony and fire a couple blasts. Biden says it will work.
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Old November 11, 2013, 01:00 AM   #34
ClydeFrog
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Remington 887?....

Did you look at the new Ithaca defense 12ga shotguns with extended magazine tubes?
I like the Remington 887 tactical too but I'm left handed.

Clyde
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Old November 13, 2013, 02:00 AM   #35
Sheikyourbootie
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Did you look at the new Ithaca defense 12ga shotguns with extended magazine tubes?
I like the Remington 887 tactical too but I'm left handed.
Clyde, since my 5 shot model 37 (1975 production) resides in my office due to a rash of armed robberies of local businesses, a new 8 shot version is what I have as my nightstand gun:

BUT, in answer to the OP's list, I'd have to lean towards the Mossberg...especially since he seems to like their tang safety.
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Old November 13, 2013, 03:51 AM   #36
Dreaming100Straight
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I think a pump is fast enough and what may be most important between it and the semi is how easy it is to chamber the first round, which assumes you do not leave it laying around with one in the chamber. That and do your hands stay in position and is kept trained on target as you chamber that critical first shell.
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Old November 13, 2013, 04:11 AM   #37
Garycw
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Looking to buy my first HD shotgun

Mossberg also makes a combo 500 model pack for around $350. It comes with 18.5" barrel reg stock, pistol grip and a 28" barrel with three tubes. Very versatile ,and a lot for the money
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Old November 13, 2013, 09:01 AM   #38
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Yah the Mossberg is great--- the safety is useless with the pistol grip and being plastic has the reputation of falling off just when you need the gun.

When the safety falls off (it does) the gun won't shoot, it just makes a nice club.
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Old November 13, 2013, 02:27 PM   #39
Dreaming100Straight
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That problem with the safety of the Mossberg is pretty common and is something that a Mossberg owner should replace with a metal button before it breaks. It runs $20 to $40 dollars depending on where you get it and if you get just he switch or all the springs.
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Old November 13, 2013, 02:39 PM   #40
Bill Akins
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Quote:
JaguarXK120 wrote:
"Yah the Mossberg is great--- the safety is useless with the pistol grip and being plastic has the reputation of falling off just when you need the gun.
When the safety falls off (it does) the gun won't shoot, it just makes a nice club. "
JaguarXK120, I also had a Mossberg "Mariner" pump once. The one with the matte stainless barrel and full length loading tube. Mine had a plastic pistol grip and a vertical fore end. I even put a side saddle shell holder on it. It looked great and bad and mean,....but,...whenever I shot it, without it having a recoiling barrel (like my Rem 11) to soak up recoil, all that recoil went straight into my right wrist. It hurt my wrist like the dickens every darn time I shot it and I'm an old ex marine who isn't a wuss and is used to recoil and have been shooting for 50 years. I've had surgeries on both my wrists and didn't want that creating wrist problems. So I sold it. After that experience I was off shotguns for awhile. Kind of soured me out. But since I got my long recoil action, light recoiling, Remington 11's, I don't have that problem with recoil hurting my wrist. I will never have another pump action shotgun with only a pistol grip. With a pump not soaking up any recoil in any way, all that recoil is transferred directly into your wrist with a pistol grip only butt portion. I learned my lesson.

For me it's a semi auto with a full shoulder stock buttstock. That's the best way to go, (at least for me). Newbies who haven't shot a shotgun much and are looking to get their first one, will find out the same thing I did about that recoil transferring directly into their wrist if they only have a pistol grip butt portion. Then like me, they will either put a regular butt stock on it, or sell it to get one with a regular buttstock that doesn't transfer so much recoil into them. For me, that's the Remington 11.


.
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"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old November 13, 2013, 04:30 PM   #41
jaguarxk120
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Dreaming-- You gotta spend another $20 to $40 just to make a gun right!!!

One would think that the maker knowing that the plastic crap safety should be made of metal would make that change not the buyer.
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Old November 13, 2013, 06:12 PM   #42
Garycw
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Looking to buy my first HD shotgun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreaming100Straight View Post
That problem with the safety of the Mossberg is pretty common and is something that a Mossberg owner should replace with a metal button before it breaks. It runs $20 to $40 dollars depending on where you get it and if you get just he switch or all the springs.
I've never heard that before, and never had a problem with the two I have. One combo with 28" barrel & reg butt stock on and one cruiser with pistol grip. I've also not had any problems with recoil on the pistol grip either. Just lucky I guess ??
Although I'm sure a metal safety switch would be better. If it ain't broke don't fix it is my philosophy
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Old November 13, 2013, 09:59 PM   #43
Dreaming100Straight
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GaryCW, I am not saying that the broken plastic safety on a Mossberg occurs on all of them but that it is fairly common and isn't a great expense to correct. That you have never heard of it is a bit surprising. Me, I have an 870 but don't know the Mossbergs - even when some Mossberg fans try to make a big deal over the need to polish chambers of the 870 Express. It cost me about $8 for some steel wool and a wooden dowel.

If the gun is for self defense, you may want to get that metal safety.

Jaguar. I agree that it is odd that Mossberg doesn't just put a metal safety on their guns. It might cost $.75. Than again, why doesn't Remington simply correct its problem with rough chambers in the 870 Express? Go figure.
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