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Old November 2, 2013, 03:27 AM   #26
Sevens
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People need to quit complaining and just do something about it. I reload using Missouri Bullets or Hornady HAP 175g/180g with 8.2 grains of Powerpistol.
8.2 grains of Power Pistol under a 180 grain bullet in 10mm is a fun load, it's a safe load and it has been (for me) an accurate load that runs well. It is not a full-bore 10mm load by any means, and it chronographs at 1,057 fps average from my 3.78" barreled Glock 29. Winchester's 175 grain Silvertip load runs just a tick over 1,105 fps average from the same pistol, for the sake of comparison.

So... you can enjoy the view from your tower where you are convinced that everyone here is "complaining" but you're running awfully close to "FBI Lite" with your special 10mm handloads.
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Old November 2, 2013, 08:42 AM   #27
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Bluedot is pretty good fuel for both 10mm and .40cal. I push either Speer full patch or Berry's 180 grain in the 10, and my new favorite for the .40 is Berry's 155 HBRN, an outstanding range load. Just load them with a view to not exceed 1200 fps, and they hold together just fine. I consider my model 20 a trail gun for those pesky bears. The .40 is a 229, and is more of a social working tool. If I was taking it to the woods, I'd put the 180 full patch in it.
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Old November 2, 2013, 09:54 AM   #28
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Well I just got some just because

I'll put it into the gel one of these days to see how it does….
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Old November 2, 2013, 12:11 PM   #29
zeke4351
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new 10mm ammo: Critical Duty

Quote:
Originally Posted by WESHOOT2 View Post
Most shooters simply cannot control powerful 10mm rds.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1383412270.003482.jpg
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Old November 2, 2013, 03:03 PM   #30
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Underwood and Buffalo Bore handily exceed the 10mm's given pressure rating. In short, they may be fast, but they're also over pressure.
Proof? I find it hard to believe. Higher velocities are obtained by better matching powders and primers.
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Old November 2, 2013, 04:45 PM   #31
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Several ways really. One, check out the 10mm-firearms.com forum and look at the bullet pull downs. I did it before they did and can tell you firsthand the powder used and how much of it, and the amount used was well above book max listed loads. When I pulled mine some months back they (UW) were using 800x...and LOTS of it. UW sometimes changes powder, but it's the same story.

Secondly, compare UW 10mm to UW .40 S&W. No reloading manual that I have read lists a 180gr 10mm @ 1300 fps. Several are close (Longshot and BlueDot), but from a 4.6" G20 those book loads hover around 1250 fps. I can get 1300-1350 fps from the G20, but to get it, I have to go over book max to get it, meaning it's over pressure. Dangerously so? I don't think so but over pressure nonetheless.

Several powders show a 180gr .40 S&W to exceed 1100 fps, and UW offers a 180gr @ 1100 fps in the .40. These really will exceed 1100 fps in a 4" G23 and according to the data are under max pressure. So having loaded a bunch of 10's and .40's over the years I can say that it's easier for a 180gr .40 to achieve 1100 fps than it is for a 10mm to achieve 1300 fps in the same length barrel. This also means UW loads their 10mm hotter than they load their .40.
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Old November 23, 2013, 03:21 PM   #32
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I got some of the Hornady 175 Critical Duty.

It was obvious that the 175 gr. Critical Duty produced less recoil than the Hornady 155 gr. XTP.

Same Glock 29 previously got a 1,278 fps average (562# KE) with 155 XTP.
The 175 gr. Critical Duty produced a 1,077 fps average (451# KE)

I thought the 175 gr. CD kicked less than the 155 XTP and the power factor calculation supports my opinion.
175 gr. @ 1,077 fps = PF 188
155 gr. @ 1,278 fps = PF 198

I shot the 175 Critical Duty into water filled gallon jugs, it exited the 3rd jug and hit the 4th jug hard but did not enter. Recovered bullet expanded to about a consistent .64 - .65 at the widest points.
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Old November 23, 2013, 05:16 PM   #33
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Great information, thank you!
Or rather -- lousy information, thank you for ensuring what we thought going in.

Just not sure what the purpose of the product is supposed to be.

Interesting that it chrono'd at/above the listed specification on the box out of a 3.78" barrel, but I shouldn't read too much in to that. Numbers can vary by day/temp, vary between each different barrel, and an OEM Glock barrel running polygonal rifling is likely to produce a bit more velocity than a traditionally rifled barrel if all else is equal.

Due props to Hornady for achieving the advertised velocity.

However, the product is... well, I'm not sure what the best words are here.
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Old November 23, 2013, 05:32 PM   #34
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As K1500 pointed out in post # 14, almost all .40 cal bullets are designed for optimum performance at 40SW velocities. If you look at, for example, the Underwood 10mm 165 grain Gold Dot, it's running a good 350 fps faster than the 165 grain Speer Gold Dot in 40 SW. That Speer load is very impressive in the gel tests I've seen. The penetration, expansion, weight retention and permanent wound channel are just about as good as it gets. That same bullet in 10mm Underwood tends to fragment, lose its jacket and under penetrate. Though there is something to be said for an extra 200 ft./lbs. of muzzle energy the bullet just wasn't meant for those kinds of velocities and bullet failure is an all too real possibility.

I would like to find a good bonded JHP hat was actually designed for 10mm but, for now, I'm carrying Silver tips. They're bad to lose their jackets through barriers and heavy clothing but they still expand and penetrate as they should. It might leave a few petals behind but the lead core is still gonna mushroom and penetrate 16 inches or so. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the 10mm Silvertip was designed for 10mm and not for 40 SW.

Now then. I wouldn't have any qualms about carrying the "watered down" stuff as long as I knew it would perform well. I certainly don't have any problem with 40SW as far as ballistics are concerned. The recoil is a little snappier than I'd like in my M&P 40. And here's one advantage I see in carrying a 10mm. When I shoot my Glock 20 and my M&P 40 side by side at the range the G20 shoots a whole lot better. The recoil is more manageable and I hit better with it. Maybe the ammo I'm using is not true full power 10mm but it's equal to or greater than 40 cal and the bigger, heavier Glock 20 shoots it a lot softer than any 40 cal gun I've ever shot.
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Old November 23, 2013, 06:07 PM   #35
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Your argument is a very good one and I can't say you're wrong. The issue I take is that some (most?) folks are specifically choosing this (otherwise likely agreed upon as oddball cartridge because it offers something over other choices.

With some of these ammo choices, it literally offers -ZERO- over .40 S&W, and in some of the choices, it offers LESS than a competing .40 S&W offering. That's where I get annoyed.

On one hand, good on Hornady for being up-front with the velocity the load will reach. I don't believe Federal shows their -WEAK- velocity on the product packaging, but IIRC, you can get it from their website.

I carry a G29 for EDC. It's on my as I type. Last week, just for giggles, I slipped a full-size Springer Loaded Model 1911 in my IWB holster for this G29. It wasn't a proper fit, but it held the pistol. I couldn't believe how much more thin it is for carry. Far more comfortable.

I have no intention of changing out my carry gun. The Glock 29 is -FAT- and that is a choice I've made. But I won't carry a fit, less-comfortable pistol to fling .40 S&W from it when I can easily do that with a Glock 23 or Glock 27.

You are correct, as was the earlier poster that they ammo manufacturer's simply haven't constructed a high-tech, cutting edge performance bullet that is designed around the velocity envelope that a proper 10mm load can offer. That stinks, but it's hard to blame them -- it's all about the money.
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Old November 25, 2013, 09:55 AM   #36
Peter M. Eick
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WESHOOT2 summaried the problem of the 10mm well.

"Most shooters simply cannot control powerful 10mm rds."


As a 10mm fan from a long time back, this has been my observation why the 40 rose and the 10mm has faded to a niche round, much like the 38 Super, 41 Mag, even the 357 Sig now.

I have let MANY folks shoot my 10mm's with full power loads. All of them have trouble controlling them. They shotgun the rounds and say the gun is not accurate or something like that. The true shooters don't need to try my 10mm's because they either have a 10mm or shoot real power like the 44 Mag and up.

The problem is those folks are rare in general but common on the forums like this one. You can see them in this thread, but this is not what Critical Duty, Silvertips or any of the other big ammo 10mm's are made for. They are more for the end user who does not reload, understands enough that the 10mm is bigger and better than the 40 and so expects more power from the 10mm but not so much that they can't control it. Thus the 50 fps more than the 40, but right in line with say a 45+p ACP round.

The reason (IMHO) the 10mm (357 Sig, 41 Mag, 360 DW, etc) did not take over the sport is it is just too much cartridge for the bulk of the shooters and the shooters that could easily handle it are drawn to more power like the 44 Mag, 480 Ruger, 454, Casull, 38 Casull, etc.

The most power that the bulk of the shooters can handle well is something right around a 230 grn and 850, or 180 at 950. This is why (IMHO) the 45 and 40 are so popular.

I believe the ammo companies know this from sales, so they made the 10mm to be just a bit more than the 40, hence a 180 at 1050 and we get Critical Duty ammo.
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Old November 27, 2013, 01:34 PM   #37
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I can't quote on this forum

It was obvious that the 175 gr. Critical Duty produced less recoil than the Hornady 155 gr. XTP.

Same Glock 29 previously got a 1,278 fps average (562# KE) with 155 XTP.
The 175 gr. Critical Duty produced a 1,077 fps average (451# KE)

I thought the 175 gr. CD kicked less than the 155 XTP and the power factor calculation supports my opinion.
175 gr. @ 1,077 fps = PF 188
155 gr. @ 1,278 fps = PF 198


Some of what I posted before ^

I thought about this further, I think the Critical Duty 10mm would make a good carry round for my Glock 29 especially in winter. The polymer tip should eliminate the ability heavy clothing to clog the hollow point preventing expansion.

The 155 XTP with a PF of 198 is pushing my limit for a quick* (about 1/3 second) 2nd shot out of the 29.
* My 2nd shot average time is based on both the 1st and 2nd shot hitting a 6'' circle placed at 6 - 7 yards; hitting out of the 6'' circle or simply inside a silhouette doesn't meet my criteria.

For comparison:
My Glock 30 (45 acp) is very controllable with either of these loads:
Federal Hydra-Shok 230 gr. @ 807 fps = PF 186
Hornady 185 gr. XTP @ 970 fps = PF 179

The Critical Duty 10mm produced a comparatively controllable PF of 188

Not saying the Critical Duty is a "better" load for SD than either of those 45 acp loads, but the recoil is comparable and capacity is increased; my flush fitting Glock 30 magazines hold 8 rounds versus 10 rounds in the model 29 magazines.
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Old November 27, 2013, 02:44 PM   #38
RickB
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Quote:
WESHOOT2 summaried the problem of the 10mm well.

"Most shooters simply cannot control powerful 10mm rds."
Is there a need to "control" powerful 10mm rounds? I mean, the gun flies out of your hand, or what sort of control are we talking about?
If you mean .15 sec shot splits, like you do with a .40 or .45, yeah, most people can't control full-power 10mm, but does anyone need .15 sec splits with a full-power 10?
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Old November 30, 2013, 01:44 PM   #39
Peter M. Eick
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Control meaning they can shoot a couple of mags well and on target at the range before they start flinching and throwing shots into patterns.

The splits are not even the issue.

Just watching folks shoot my 10's with full power (200@1200) loads and seeing them have trouble even creating a group tells me that it is a power issue. Give them the same 1911 if say 45 and they can create a nice group and enjoy it. Give them a 10mm 1911 and they start slinging shots hither and yon.
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