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Old October 27, 2013, 09:08 AM   #1
Doc Hoy
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Think I made a mistake....

I loaded Triple Seven FFFg in.45 LC cartridges at a full load.

Got off the phone with a Hodgdon guy about a different issue and the conversation came around to 777 in .45 LC cartridges.

He told me that there is a warning on 777 canisters to the effect that it is not intended for use in cartridges. I looked at my 777 canister and could find no such warning.

I found a pamphlet online from 2010 that talks about Triple Seven precautions and I am left to understand that I should not shoot these .45LC rounds that are fully loaded with FFFg. I have some with FFg which is supposed to be alright.

I am shooting one Uberti .45LC and one Vaquero .45LC. I also have some .44 Magnum rounds loaded to the max with Triple Seven FFFg.

Famous last words: "I have shot this specific round previously in both of these revolvers without problems." But it only takes one to remove a thumb.

What do you know about Triple Seven FFFg in cartridges?

Tnx,
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Old October 27, 2013, 10:24 AM   #2
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Also....

I only mentioned the two revolvers.

I also have two rifles in .45LC. One is a Henry Big Boy and the other is a Rossi M92.

I am thinking that the rifles are sturdier than the cylinders on these revolvers.

I hate to think about discarding 400 rounds of ammunition.

Is it logical to think that the ammo is safe to shoot in the rifles?
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Old October 27, 2013, 12:11 PM   #3
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Quote:
777 canisters to the effect that it is not intended for use in cartridges.
(It is what it is)_My suggestion: Looks like you have to get busy with that kinetic bullet puller Doc.
I don't think it would be wise of me to tell you to go ahead and shoot em after reading your Thread. {And advise from that Hodgdon representative} Gee's that's too bad._ Wow!! Allot of shells too._ But a mistake is a mistake.
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Old October 27, 2013, 12:35 PM   #4
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I dunno about the pistols but the 92 can handle it and I would think the Henry could. A full case of 777 is around a 46 grain bp equivalent. That's pretty hot.
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Old October 27, 2013, 01:09 PM   #5
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My thought as well

I can shoot up these rounds through the rifles.

That means I only have to take the .44 Magnums apart.

I would not be surprised to learn that the precaution from Hodgdon is the "Lawyers talking". But I don't dare take the chance. Too fond of my fingers.
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Old October 27, 2013, 01:42 PM   #6
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Uberti chambers their 73 in 357 mag but then the cylinder walls are also thicker but then again its a lot more pressure. I would tend to think it would be ok but then again I wouldn't load my 44-40 that hot.
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Old October 27, 2013, 04:21 PM   #7
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Hawg....

It is a lot more pressure if I were loading smokeless, Right?

Which I am not.
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Old October 27, 2013, 04:32 PM   #8
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True.
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Old October 27, 2013, 07:45 PM   #9
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http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html#

They are saying FFG 777 only in cartridges.

What does the loading date indicate in their pamphlet (Hodgdon)? I don't have a Hodgdon loading manual and the manuals I do have are only showing data for smokeless in regards to CAS loads for the 45 Colt - nothing for 777 . . . .

Regardless of "lawyer influence" . . . I think I would pull the loads and dump 'em and follow what the Hodgdon loading manual data indicates . . . some may have used 3F 777 but personally, I sort of like my fingers on my hands. Just my thoughts for what it's worth.
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Old October 27, 2013, 08:57 PM   #10
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I worked up my 357 load with FFFg T7 before I read the precaution to only use the 3F in cap& ball guns. I figured the .357 was a pretty high pressure cartridge and the Rossi 92s I have can handle full tilt smokeless loads so I doubted there would be a problem. I'm only putting 15 grs (weighed) in the cartridges w/a 158gr bullet. Since the mod 92 is also chambered in 454 Casull I figured it is a pretty strong gun so I've just gone ahaead and used that load. It's all the powder I can get in the case, get my best accuracy and reliable feeding.

I would not fire your loads in the '73 rifle nor the revolvers. I've often thought that a full case of 3F T7 in a toggle action might be too much in any caliber other than maybe, 32/20 and under. The larger capacity cartridges like 38/40, 44/40, 45LC in a '73 would be asking for trouble.

I think a 44 Mag with 3F T7 would not be much worse than using a full load of smokeless, pressure wise unless the T7 was heavily compressed. None of my .357 cases have ever shown signs of high pressure (flattened primers or case stretching). I am not recommending it, but you can test fire a rifle remotely by putting the butt into an old car tire and rest the barrel over the opposite side of the tire pointed in a safe direction. Then tie a long string to the trigger, cock the gun and get behind solid, bullet/shrapnel proof cover then pull the string. Doing that a few times and checking the cases for signs of pressure might help you decide whether it is worth the risk to shoot the rest or knock them apart. Shoot some factory smokeless loads at the same time to compare cases (preferably with the same brand of primer and case). See the back pages of any Dixie Gun Works catalog for a photo and details on proofing an older gun. My expectation is the factory smokeless loads are higher pressure than the 777 3F loads.
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Old October 28, 2013, 09:54 AM   #11
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I have two .45 revolvers, a Redhawk and a New Vaquero.

I have been fooling with black powder and substitutes for most of 2013, with my chronograph in the truck most of the time so I can use it at the range.

I am using 270gr RCBS-SAA bullets from various vendors.

I have settled on 777 FFg as my go to powder. As above with standard primers from my 3.75" bbl New Vaquero I can get 35 gr volume of FF 777 under the bullet with a thin lube cookie, and chrono about 800 fps. Runs good.

I ran a gang of 6 cartridges of 777 FFFg otherwise same as above this summer. Twice, just to be sure. Chrono about 810fps muzzle, but my gun got really really hot to the touch after just six rounds. Twice. So I stopped loading FFFg 777 into 45 Colt.
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Old October 28, 2013, 12:31 PM   #12
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I have seen the same warning on my older jugs of T7 powders.
However, the last 4 jugs did not have that warning.
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Old October 28, 2013, 12:38 PM   #13
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I am an embarrassing tightwad

I am making my own inertia puller.

I am not going to shoot the questionable rounds in anything.

In other instances I can be a little fool hearty. (I load directly from a CVA flask to a previously fired cap and ball revolver. I exceed the speed limit on the way to and from the range. I criticize my wife's cooking.)

But not in this instance.
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Old October 28, 2013, 08:42 PM   #14
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Doc please don't load directly from a powder flask. Just one teeny little ember would set that off in your hand like a grenade. It only takes a couple of seconds more to use the powder measure. Please don't take risks like that, I want to continue reading your posts, not hear you died. Even in the unlikely event you lived through a flask exploding, your hand would be gone and the exploding powder grains would burn out your eyes. It ain't worth losing a hand and having your eyes burnt out Doc. Please, please don't load directly from a flask....EVER.

Here's a good challenge for your inventive brain Doc. Make a kinetic bullet puller that doesn't dump the lubed bullet into the powder. I have an RCBS kinetic bullet puller that works very well, but if I am using a bullet that is lubed in any way, when it falls into the powder, the powder sticks to it and not only do I have to brush the powder off the bullet, but that messes up the measuring of the powder since some of the powder always goes into and sticks into the lubed groove.

I have always wished my kinetic bullet puller would somehow pull the bullet without dumping it into the powder. I have tried to whack the puller just enough so the bullet almost comes out but not quite, then hand pull the bullet the rest of the way, but I very seldom am able to judge the force needed to do that and most of the time dump the bullet into the powder. Even if the bullet isn't lubed, powder frequently sticks to it because of static electricity and I still have to brush it off most of the time. Wish there was a less messy way to pull the bullet.

(Lightbulb just went off as I was writing this!)
Just had an idea that might help you (and me). I was thinking about drilling and tapping threads into the end of my RCBS kinetic bullet puller, so that I could screw a threaded rod with a slot in its end (for adjusting depth with a screwdriver) into the end of the puller. So that the rod wasn't sticking out the end of the "hammer head" of the puller, but was inside the "head", and could be screwed down so that I could adjust it for depth, so that I could adjust it so that any bullet I wanted to pull would be stopped by the threaded rod, just a fraction before it came out of the case. Then I could finish pulling the bullet by hand so I never dumped the lubed bullet into the powder again.

Come to think of it, I'm going to make that mod to my RCBS kinetic bullet puller. Should be an easy thing to do. But I'll bet a homemade one by you like that would be interesting. Your homemade stuff is always cool and interesting.


.
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Last edited by Bill Akins; October 28, 2013 at 08:59 PM.
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Old October 29, 2013, 03:51 AM   #15
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Thanks for the concern, Bill.

I must go on record as saying that loading directly from a flask to a hot revolver is more dangerous that loading from a single charge device. It takes an awful lot of care to reduce the risk to an acceptable (to me) level.

I don't recommend it for anyone else.

Careful modifying your RCBS. Since I am loading a wide range of bullet lengths, such a threaded rod would have to be long to accommodate all of the different sizes. On my puller, it would be hard to arrive at a length which would never be adjusted with the slot of the screw outside of the head of the puller.

When I started thinking about making one, I naturally thought steel. That means the possibility of sparks. So I figured, "Hmmm...I gotta keep the powder in the case". So I developed some dimensions for some short slugs which would simply be placed in the puller before the bullet goes in. Bullet is stopped by the slug rather than the bottom of the puller.

I think your RCBS puller is made of hard plastic. So steel slugs inside the puller might be hard on the interior surfaces of the puller. You might try some short pieces of wooden dowel rod instead.

I am only guessing at how much bullet should be left in the case. Not much, I am thinking
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Old October 29, 2013, 06:39 AM   #16
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I'm glad you posted your dilemma, I have some Trip 7 lying about, and i pretty much put any bp sub or bp into cartridges for my Uberti .357 Model P repro. After your post, and reading the replies, the said Trip 7 will only be used in cap and ball and single shots. I guess I'm kinda like you, I am fond of my fingers. Thanks for bringing this question to light, it's bad that you have wasted your time and resources loading these bullets, but the good spot is that you may have just saved someone else from being maimed. I reckon that's some good medicine that should come your way!
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Old October 29, 2013, 07:19 AM   #17
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Brazos et al...

I am not terribly concerned about the .357s. Thicker cylinder walls, Lower pressures.

Maybe I am being fool hearty again but I don't intend to download the 300 .357s I have.

I will shoot them but I will begin to use only Goex, Pyrodex, and 777 FFg.

(The only powders I can get without excessive effort or expense.)
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Old October 29, 2013, 01:21 PM   #18
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Finished the inertia puller

Finished making this puller so I can get these thousands of rounds apart.




The collets are for .357, .44, .45, and .45-70



It works pretty good.




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Old October 29, 2013, 01:28 PM   #19
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Wow, that looks indestructible compared to my plastic one!

Steve
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Old October 29, 2013, 01:29 PM   #20
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Of course, my plastic one will last forever since I don't make reloading mistakes.



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Old October 29, 2013, 01:45 PM   #21
Doc Hoy
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I don't either....

I meant to overload my last five hundred rounds.

I did it on purpose.

I wanted an excuse to build this hammer.




Nyuk nyuk nyuk
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Old October 29, 2013, 08:44 PM   #22
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Ok, so I guess I screwed up using the 777 in my first try at reloading .45 colt. Oh well, live and learn.
And Doc, nice puller
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Old October 30, 2013, 04:07 AM   #23
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Great looking puller Doc! Like it a lot.
Did you make any inserts for it so a lubed bullet won't dump in with the powder and make a mess getting powder stuck all in the lube?

I was thinking that maybe just like you made different size collets for the cases, that maybe you could also make different length rods for the different length cases. You could either make rods of wood or metal, and place them in the hammer cavity so that the projectile was just barely left in the case after you whacked it. Then you could pull it out the rest of the way by hand. Also was thinking about what you said about my idea of using a threaded rod that was countersunk into the hammer head (so it wouldn't stick out the end of the hammer head) and threaded internally into the hammer head too, where you said one threaded rod wouldn't work for all your different length cases. Well, why not make several different length threaded rods? Shorter ones for rifle cases and longer ones for pistol cases. Then you should be able to adjust each threaded rod so that the projectile just almost leaves the case, but barely stays in. That way no dumping a lubed bullet into the powder. Whatcha think about that Doc?


.
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Old October 30, 2013, 06:00 AM   #24
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Northeast and Bill,

NER,

If you loaded FFg, you should be okay according to Hodgdon. It is the fast expansion rate of FFFg coupled with the 15% higher energy of 777 that creates a dangerous situation.

I am positive that I have fire rounds packed to the gills with FFFg 777 and the revolver and rifle withstood it. But I will pull these rounds apart and avoid doing it again.

Bill,

Yes. I made a slug from brass round stock. I whack the puller six or seven times and the bullet can be pulled with my fingers. Powder, case and bullet undamaged and no powder in the puller. The slug is for .44 magnums. I had 50 of those to take apart. I think it will be the right size for .45 LC too.
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Old October 30, 2013, 06:21 AM   #25
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Cool Doc! Now it just looks like it's time for you to engage in a bit of time and repetition. Going to take a while to download all those cases. But you got a real nice tool made now to do the job.


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"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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