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Old October 25, 2013, 03:10 PM   #1
Arocholl
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Selling firearms to an out of state resident

Not sure if this is in the right place so moderators please move if it is not.

Anyways, I live in Michigan and my mom and dad live in Georgia. My mom has recently gotten interested in getting a handgun and I have one that I want to sell and she wants. Does the handgun need to be shipped from a MI FFL to a GA FFL in order for her to obtain it?

I'm curious because they will be up here for Christmas and if she could just take it with her it would save the shipping and transfer costs.

Georgia does not have registration of handguns (I know because I used to live there and bought my first pistol there).

Also, how would I have the firearm removed from the MI Pistol Registry handled by the Michigan State Police?

Thank you for the help and insight.
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Old October 25, 2013, 03:42 PM   #2
NoSecondBest
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By law a transfer of a handgun has to go through an FFL to another FFL. You just can't give her the gun. It's a pain in the you know what, but that's the way it is.
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Old October 25, 2013, 03:48 PM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
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Actually, it DOESN'T have to originate from an FFL except that you have to be careful how you ship as an individual (No USPS) but it does have to go through a Georgia FFL.
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Old October 25, 2013, 08:17 PM   #4
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arocholl
...they will be up here for Christmas and if she could just take it with her it would save the shipping and transfer costs...
And it would make each of you eligible for up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine (plus a lifetime loss of gun rights). Doing that would violate federal law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arocholl
...I live in Michigan and my mom and dad live in Georgia. My mom has recently gotten interested in getting a handgun and I have one that I want to sell and she wants. Does the handgun need to be shipped from a MI FFL to a GA FFL in order for her to obtain it?...
Under federal law it needs to be shipped to a Georgia FFL for transfer to your mother. Legally you could ship it (by UPS or FedEx), but some FFLs will not accept from a non-licensee a gun for transfer. Also, it might be less expensive for a local FFL to ship it to the Georgia FFL. Your mother needs to find an agreeable FFL convenient to her and then you can work out the details.

Here's the whole federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):
  1. Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

  2. In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

  3. In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence. In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

  4. There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  5. The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

  6. Here's what the statutes say:
    Quote:
    18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
    (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

    (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
    ...

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
    ....

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
    ...

    (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
    (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

    (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
    ...
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Old October 26, 2013, 02:28 PM   #5
Arocholl
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Selling firearms to an out of state resident

Thank you for the help everyone. I really don't want to lost my firearms rights.
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Old October 26, 2013, 09:21 PM   #6
JimDandy
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One thing they didn't say is your mom could move in with you, get a MI Driver's license and become a Michigan resident. I'm not sure which would be cheaper, two driver's licenses and moving her official state of residence twice (and possibly the required wait time to make it official and legal) or the FFL fees.
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Old October 29, 2013, 02:08 AM   #7
RX-79G
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I wonder if Mom can act as a shipping agency, transporting your gun to a GA FFL for transfer.

Is there a legal difference between one private shipper (Mom) and UPS? In the end, a transfer is just about who owns a gun, rather than who has possession of it.

Not to suggest anything illegal, but is there really anything wrong with leaving your pistol in your mother's safe keeping? I can't think of any law that prevents her from transporting, storing and even using a firearm that you own. (CA, NY or MA registration exceptions, of course.)
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Old October 29, 2013, 10:08 AM   #8
dogtown tom
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Quote:
RX-79G I wonder if Mom can act as a shipping agency, transporting your gun to a GA FFL for transfer.
No. "Mom" isn't a common carrier and it becomes a Federal crime as soon as she takes possession.



Quote:
Is there a legal difference between one private shipper (Mom) and UPS?
Seriously?



Quote:
In the end, a transfer is just about who owns a gun, rather than who has possession of it.
You have it backwards. Transfers have NOTHING to do with ownership, and are 100% about possession.




Quote:
Not to suggest anything illegal, but is there really anything wrong with leaving your pistol in your mother's safe keeping?
You ARE suggesting something illegal. "Leaving it" becomes an illegal interstate transfer.




Quote:
I can't think of any law that prevents her from transporting, storing and even using a firearm that you own. (CA, NY or MA registration exceptions, of course.)
You haven't read any Federal law have you?
Start here:http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-...censed-persons
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Old October 29, 2013, 10:38 AM   #9
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
Not to suggest anything illegal, but is there really anything wrong with leaving your pistol in your mother's safe keeping?...
As dogtown tom has pointed out, you are in fact suggesting illegal conduct. And it's illegal conduct which can have grave consequences.

You clearly do not understand the law. Where legal issues are concerned you should not be spouting off about things you don't understand. You could get someone into a lot of trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
...Is there a legal difference between one private shipper (Mom) and UPS?...
There most definitely is. In the law, the term "common carrier" means (emphasis added):
Quote:
1.a company offering services to the public over wires or satelite systems. 2. a transporter that serves all public, follows a schedule, carries specified cargo, and is the carrier of the contract or carriage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
...In the end, a transfer is just about who owns a gun, rather than who has possession of it...
Absolutely wrong.

Possession means:
Quote:
1 a : the act of having or taking into control...
Transfer is about possession, not ownership.

Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):

Let's look at the statutes again:
  1. 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    Quote:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...
  2. And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    Quote:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

In 922(a)(3) the statute refers to transporting or receiving a firearm obtained -- words broader than ownership and consistent with possession. In 922(a)(5), the references to "transfer", "sell", "transport" and "deliver" are also consistent with possession and broader than ownership.
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; October 29, 2013 at 10:45 AM.
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Old October 29, 2013, 10:40 AM   #10
Frank Ettin
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I've closed this thread. The OP has his answer, and the thread is starting to attract lousy information.
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