The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old October 25, 2013, 03:49 AM   #1
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 2,697
It has happened. Some may feel vindicated.

Whatever people may think about laws in other lands, those lands are entitled to govern as they see fit and that should be respected.

I don't like that they banned gun ownership to such an extent, but I like even less some undesirable possibly printing their own for nefarious purposes.

And so, it is understandable that some have been shocked by a recent discovery. It seems that despite attempts to control their availability, plans have been found and used to print suspected gun parts.

It is a fair assumption that the perpetrators were not after a plinker!
It may have just been "to see if it could be done", but then why the home-made powder?

They got caught this time, but will they next time?

Will they now start monitoring who buys 3D-printers, or insisting manufacturers install reporting software to feed into a police database?

The story so far....

I wonder how the designers would feel about this development.
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 07:21 AM   #2
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,190
Quote:
I don't like that they banned gun ownership to such an extent, but I like even less some undesirable possibly printing their own for nefarious purposes.
Might it be that the printing of homemade parts is a consequence of the ban? Right or wrong, it shouldn't be a surprise when blanket prohibitions result in a black market. Nor is it a surprise that a linked story discusses the adaptation of antique guns to functional firearms.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 07:28 AM   #3
Bezoar
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2004
Location: michigan
Posts: 578
Now as to the printer parts, no one can say what they actually are or what they coudl be used for. Just going online to brownells, and haveing a hammer or trigger from a pietta saa sent to an address in the uk would be enough to gt you in jail.

Last edited by Tom Servo; October 25, 2013 at 07:34 AM. Reason: Broad politics
Bezoar is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 07:33 AM   #4
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,743
Quote:
Just going online to brownells, and haveing a hammer or trigger from a pietta saa sent to an address in the uk would be enough to gt you in jail.
Where the heck did you get that bit of info from?
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 07:41 AM   #5
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 872
what about those of us who have the equipment and ability to manufacture the same parts out of actual steel? Why stop at 3-d printers?
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason
iraiam is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 07:57 AM   #6
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,744
Not condoning it, but stating the obvious:

This is the information age:

You Can't Stop The Signal.


Bans of physical things will not stop determined, well financed groups, (or even intelligent, but crazy individuals) from committing mayhem ..... and you can't kill an idea if there are heads that harbor and can communicate it. Laws, even harshly enforced laws, won't do it: If it were possible to make a completely safe Police State, then prisons would be the very safest of places. They among the most violent places on earth.

You must win in the marketplace of ideas, and make mayhem unpalatable, unprofitable, and unacceptable.

Likewise, in a free society, there are going to be risks ..... that's the price of Liberty.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 08:14 AM   #7
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,930
Quote:
"In theory, the technology essentially allows offenders to produce their own guns in the privacy of their own home, which they can then supply to the criminal gangs who are causing such misery in our communities
Or maybe some average Joe just tired of being forcibly disarmed by a government that cannot adequately protect him and his family from the criminal gangs who are causing such misery in our communities and wants to do something about it ???

IMO, self preservation should and will ALWAYS trump the laws of the land.

Too, as Tom pointed out, whether we like it or not when something is outlawed or forbidden to have and there is a desire of a certain percentage of the populace to have that forbidden fruit then there WILL be a black market for that fruit eventually.
shortwave is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 08:29 AM   #8
vito
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2004
Posts: 632
It would be ironic if someone ordered online actual gun parts but listed the delivery address as one of the leading anti-gun leaders in the UK, then alerted authorities. Nothing would really surprise me about the UK's fanaticism against guns after reading numerous stories of individuals clearly acting in self defense, with or without a gun, and then becoming the target of prosecutors. I have also read recently that although the rate of gun homicide in the UK is far lower than in the U.S., the rate of homicide and the rate of violent crime is 5 times higher than in the U.S.
__________________
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
― George Orwell
vito is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 08:36 AM   #9
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,744
Quote:
I have also read recently that although the rate of gun homicide in the UK is far lower than in the U.S., the rate of homicide and the rate of violent crime is 5 times higher than in the U.S.
As if it matters to the victims or their families if they were beaten to death ot shot to death .....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 08:45 AM   #10
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 872
Quote:
I have also read recently that although the rate of gun homicide in the UK is far lower than in the U.S., the rate of homicide and the rate of violent crime is 5 times higher than in the U.S.
Yes, it has happened right after their massive "gun ban", but they conveniently leave off the data to support the increased violent crime rate to make it look like lower crime because guns were not used.

This has been brought to our attention dozens of times over the past decade by the NRA, John Lott, and many others.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason
iraiam is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 09:36 AM   #11
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,190
Quote:
Yes, it has happened right after their massive "gun ban", but they conveniently leave off the data to support the increased violent crime rate to make it look like lower crime because guns were not used.
Another problem with British statistics is that many crimes are not reported as such until prosecuted.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus

Last edited by Tom Servo; October 25, 2013 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Added link
Tom Servo is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 10:16 AM   #12
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,206
The overall rate of homicide in the UK is about 1.1 per hundred thousand population per year recently. It peaked at 2.1/100K in 2002. The U. S. is at about 4.7/100K. It was about at low as the UK in 1900, and has been as high as 10.2/100K in 1980, with secondary and tertiary peaks at 9.8/100k in 1991, and 9.5/100K in 1993. It has been trending down since then. Switzerland, with lots of privately controlled full auto selector switch true assault rifles, is at about 0.6 per hundred thousand population per year.

There just isn't any direct correlation between private gun ownership and violent death rates throughout the world. This page on the Wikipedia is useful to look at. When you pick a year and sort the columns by homicide rate, you may be flabbergasted by how many countries are higher and sometimes much higher in their homicide rates than the U.S. is. Let's just say that South America is not the safest place to be.

I believe what has increased in the UK is the portion of gun crimes, and that major cities have much higher crime rates than the country as a whole. The same is true here, as anyone living in Chicago knows. One has to be careful with what specifics narrow the case, and to compare apples to apples.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member

Last edited by Unclenick; October 26, 2013 at 09:20 AM. Reason: typo fix
Unclenick is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 11:43 AM   #13
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 2,697
Quote:
Just going online to brownells, and haveing a hammer or trigger from a pietta saa sent to an address in the uk would be enough to gt you in jail.
Actually, US legislation is such that US companies are prohibited from shipping anything that is part of the gun.

Sights, not allowed, Optics, not allowed. I've tried, and that was the reason given. Holsters and grips I have managed to buy but not the others.

It seems that Estonia is listed as an undesirable state to ship "strategic" goods to.

Estonia is an EU state, part of the Euro zone and part of NATO with, proportionally speaking, one of the highest numbers of troops committed in places like Afghanistan etc. But hunting optics or scope rings? No, we are too dangerous to supply...

So, the idea of ordering a trigger to the UK is a non-starter...
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 02:42 PM   #14
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,718
After the initial story broke, the internet exploded with people telling the UK Police that they're idiots, and that the parts they found were for the printer, itself.

So, the police have changed their tone to "we found some stuff, and need to figure out what it is."

UK police cast doubt on 3D-printed 'gun parts'
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 09:26 PM   #15
Nickel Plated
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 529
First I wonder how exactly they found out about these "gun parts" this guy had to start the raid to begin with. If they can be so secretly made in the privacy of one's home then I'm assuming they were there for something else and just happened upon them. It really bugs me when news stories say "Police found X in mans home during raid" X being something which could be kept inconspicuously without anyone knowing, and never say why the police were there to begin with.

So essentially they came into his house saw some pieces of plastic on the table and immediately assumed "gun parts" and charge him with possession. Despite the fact that those parts could really be from anything. The police themselves admitted they have no idea what the parts are for.

Lovely place the UK.
Nickel Plated is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 11:45 PM   #16
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 2,697
Quote:
"Police found X in mans home during raid"
They are not obliged to tell us why they were there and if they were raiding for one illegal activity, then it is not unrealistic to assume there might be other activities going on. In any case, subsequent reports have cast further doubt on the parts being for a gun.

Quote:
Lovely place the UK.
So you've lived there long enough to form such a comprehensive opinion?
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old October 26, 2013, 09:32 AM   #17
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,206
It is quite true that until you've lived overseas, you don't really know what another culture may or may not have in common with your own. If you think you can guess, you're wrong. You can't just watch an episode of Anthony Bourdain's travels and actually have a feel for a place. It that were true, government wouldn't make foreign policy blunders; and despite ambassadors and intelligence analysts and all manner of available research, it does. You just have to live in a place to know it.

Add to this that the Internet makes it easy to propagate rumors, inaccurate surmise, and manufactured "facts", and anything said about another country that's not said by a native is suspect. And even then, other countries have persons with political biases and agendas, too, so what one person says may not be a universal perception where he lives.

The earlier misstatements about U.K. homicide rates remind us how to spell 'assume'. I think I'll close this one before it turns into a xenophobic exercise. Feel free to PM me if you think it needs to keep going.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10731 seconds with 7 queries