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Old October 28, 2013, 09:18 PM   #26
leadcounsel
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Kimbercommander said: LeadCouncil, how is the .300 win mag close to a .50 bmg? These two rounds are as different as the .22lr to the .308 in question with this forum.
As an officer in the military with several combat deployments, with high speed units, and as a person naturally interested in guns, I've sought out every single chance to shoot guns that I could. And I'm also an avid collector and shooter, and have been professional schools and training. I have significant experience on both the .50 and 300 win mag. I've fired the M2 many times, and own/shoot a .300 win mag. Save your CoD comments for someone else. I've fired and trained on nearly every modern or relevant small arm ever made, including full autos.

Here's a picture of me at the flatrange on the M2. Shot 400 rounds of .50 that day alone. And shooting the M240B. Shot several hundred rounds of .308. I've shot these weapons many times. So yeah, I'm familiar with the platforms and bullets.

I didn't say they were identical and you're purposefully mis-construing what I've said. I'm saying that the .300 win mag in a GPMG is silly when the .308 is more of an intermediate step above the 5.56. The .308 just makes sense and the 240B and the sniper platforms work fine for what they need to do, on mounted vehicles or dismounted.

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These two rounds are as different as the .22lr to the .308 in question with this forum.
That statement is absolutely nonsense. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyone that has trained for war, and carried weight from A to B, knows that lighter effective ammo is your friend.
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Old October 30, 2013, 09:24 PM   #27
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A misunderstanding on my part then. I agree with you on the .300 win mag is a silly MG round. What do you think of the new MG the army is testing with the electric ignition? Seems pretty sweet to me not dropping brass all over the place. I was a medic in the army and i know all about carrying weight. A med bag on top of a standard combat load gets pretty heavy if you ask me.
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Old November 1, 2013, 05:42 AM   #28
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Changes aren't likely on the horizon...

If all it took were a much more efficient cartridge (as an example), the 6.5 Grendel would replace the 5.56 in a heartbeat. In this case many existing weapons systems would only need slight modifications (although I'm not sure about belting the Grendel for MG applications) of mags and barrels- yet they (military) still doesn't do it.
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Old November 2, 2013, 02:16 PM   #29
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Unless the gun grabbers get their way. If they do this conversation will be pointless.
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Old November 3, 2013, 06:32 PM   #30
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I always thought the military should of went with the good ole 243 over 5.56. If it happened like that I don't think we would of saw 308 in sniper applications cause those 6mm pills have real high BC's
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Old November 3, 2013, 06:59 PM   #31
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I do not have near the knowledge on the military side as most of you. But coming from the old hunting side,Match shooting and general over all paper punching. I do not see the 308 going away for a long long time if ever. It is one of the most common hunting rounds. Very popular in paper punching and just a all around load.

It was put to me this way from a very knowledgable person....

The 308 is great at nothing,but good at everything.
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Old November 3, 2013, 07:54 PM   #32
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Until the Pentagon stops futzing around with cartridge firearms and begins serious development of an infantry laser weapon, the 7.62x51 is here to stay.
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Old November 5, 2013, 01:50 PM   #33
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brett119, the .243 Win's barrel life is about one-third of what the current US military rifle rounds have.

The 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rounds, plus the old .30-06, all have about 10,000 rounds of service grade barrel life.

And no 24 caliber (6mm) "pill" I know of has the higher BC's that the heavy 30 caliber ones do; that's in the .700+ G1 range.
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Old November 5, 2013, 01:57 PM   #34
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The 308 is great at nothing, but good at everything
Great at nothing? Wow!!!

The .308's shot the smallest series of 10- and 40-shot groups at 600 yards as well as smallest 20-shot group at 800 yards I know of.

It shoots bullets 180 grains and less more accurate than any other case Sierra Bullets tried in their quest to find one that is good enough to test their stuff for accuracy with.

The military equivalent has been used in the most accurate USA service rifles used in competition. The US Army tried to get 5.56 stuff to compete, but folks using older 7.62 NATO versions kicked their back side way too often; they convinced the NRA to let the commercial AR10 in .308 Win be classified as a "Service Rifle" in NRA sanction matches.

Does all this mean the .308's great at nothing? Seems to me its the best tasting slice in the performance pie; the "accuracy" slice, that is.
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Old November 5, 2013, 05:17 PM   #35
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I'd like to know which groups you're talking about mr bart. The world record 5 shot group is held by 6mm dasher. Not many competitors use a .308 in classes that arn't restricted to it.

Longest sniper kills recorded (past 1250m) have been made with .50's and .338's. Out of to 12 only 1 was a .308.

There are better, lighter or heavier rounds than the .308. Really it is not the best at anything, but good at most.

The .300 win mag shoots the same exact bullet, just faster.
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Old November 5, 2013, 05:59 PM   #36
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There are better, lighter or heavier rounds than the .308. Really it is not the best at anything, but good at most.

This is probably what's ensured its longevity in military service, and will keep it active in civilian life for much, much longer. At a pinch, it'll do almost anything that most people need it to.
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Old November 5, 2013, 06:26 PM   #37
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semi-problomatic, single, 5-shot record groups are either 99%+ luck with all the variables cancelling each other out, or, 99%+ everything being perfect in the benchrest game; all the others from that rifle-ammo-shooter system are larger. There's no way to tell which made them so tiny; luck or perfection.

Benchrest aggregates best represent accuracy of all involved; the more shots and groups in an aggregate, the better it is. Reality is, about a fourth to a third of all groups fired are larger than the average or aggregate numbers.

All groups for accuracy are not fired in competition after 8 AM the day of the match. Some are fired before 6 AM when the wind's calm and air crystal clear without subtle air currents to change bullet's flight path from shot to shot. And done by folks just testing their stuff in a remote canyon and not competing with nor against anyone dozens or hundreds of miles away from the nearest long range benchrest match.

I referred to a series of 10-shot groups at 600 yards in one such instance. That had 7 or 8 groups shot; I now forget how many exactly. They ranged from about .7 to 1.5 inches with an average of about 1.1 inch. Then a 40-shot group was made with the same ammo printing all just under 2 inches.

What's the size of the largest group shot in the six 10-shot group aggregate in NBRSA 600 yard matches that holds the record? 2.092", 2.7547" and 3.0479" is the averages and the numbers for the three types of aggregates which means the largest group in each was 3 to 5 inches.

In a fall, 1991, issue of Handloader Magazine's a picture of some .308 Win. Palma ammo with new cases, 3/10ths grain spread in charge weight and up to .004" bullet runout measuring 2.7 inches across the widest holes in a 20-shot, 600 yard group it was tested at; compare that to the NBRSA three 10-shot aggregates shot at 600 yards the biggest of which is 2.4824" so the biggest group's over 3 inches.
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Old November 5, 2013, 06:36 PM   #38
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Bart-- read between the lines buddy. yes the 308 is great at nothing,but good at everything. It is not the best target round and is not the best hunting round, but is very good at both. It is probably the best all around one to pick, but far from best at any thing.

Great hunting round,but out done by many others, great target round, but again out done by many.
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Old November 5, 2013, 06:47 PM   #39
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4runner, yes, I know that. Good point showing differences in interpretation by two people reading the same set of words. But it's been tested to better accuracy at 600 yards than what benchrest records show.
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Old November 5, 2013, 07:34 PM   #40
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You didn't answer the question. What event did you see the .308 make the smallest groups at? I simply wish to know which even you saw competitors using the .308 at and what calibers you're comparing the .308 when it comes to smallest groups.

You then say, "The military equivalent has been used in the most accurate USA service rifles used in competition. The US Army tried to get 5.56 stuff to compete, but folks using older 7.62 NATO versions kicked their back side way too often; they convinced the NRA to let the commercial AR10 in .308 Win be classified as a "Service Rifle" in NRA sanction matches." which is kinda a loaded comparison, considering what is allowed to be used in service rifle. Other long range contenders like the big .50 and .300 win mag arn't allowed to play even though there are service rifles in service chambered for them. Both out perform the .308 at long range.

I doubt the .308 is going anywhere for a while, simply because the military has such a surplus. When they gave us SDM rifles, they just took some M14's out of storage and handed em out. Our ammo was delinked machine gun ammo.

But as it is, the 5.56 already went way past the .308's life as a service rifle. It is now a special issue.

One other thing to think about; if the military does adopt a 6.5 or 6.8 it could totally replace the 5.56 and .308. The .308 is only an intermediate round for the military, so if they adopt a round that can perform out to 500(ish) m then they could replace the M4, M16, M14, M249 and M240 shooting 5.56 and 7.62 with weapons shooting the same round. Logistics would be much easier. 1 rifle instead of 3, 1 machine gun instead of 2. The M24 could be fully converted over to .300 win mag. SDM's could use the same rifle or an upgraded upper with free floated barrel and better optics... In that case the .308 would be like the 30-06.
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Old November 5, 2013, 08:55 PM   #41
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What event did I see the .308 make the smallest groups at?

No "event" at all. Just testing for accuracy. 'Twasn't a formal, sanctioned match by any organization whatsoever. And my comparisons was made against all calibers used for benchrest competition beyond 300 yards.

Read the NRA high power rules and you'll see what constitutes a "service rifle" by those standards to be eligible to use in that category.

Everyone does not have to shoot in competition to see how accurate their stuff is. None of their stuff knows where it's being shot anyway (I don't think neither rifles nor ammo has a memory-based, brain-controlled nervous system, do they?). And benchrest gear is not the only super-accurate hardware suite on this planet in spite of what most folks think.
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Old November 5, 2013, 10:43 PM   #42
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Ah, so the .308 is the only round shot at 6am in canyons and the rounds that win competitions and set records arn't? Or maybe the .308's carriage turns into a pumpkin after 8am?

And I realise benchrest isn't the only game in town, mr bart. I also realise that in many long range shoots that don't restrict you to military cartridges the .308 isn't even seen. You'd think if the .308 was as accurate as you suggest someone would use it. Or set records with it. Or win matches with it maybe...
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Old November 5, 2013, 11:08 PM   #43
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. . . . . whatever . . . . .
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Old November 6, 2013, 05:58 AM   #44
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Semi-- The 308 is still used in F class very much. One of the guys I shoot with just won the 1000 yard Grand Masters Match this year with a custom built 308.
There are close to a dozen people I shoot with that still use the 308. In fact one guy in here shoots F Class with a Savage Axis in 308 and holds is own with it.
Yes it is definetly out classed from the get go,but is still being used.
On windy day's I still take my 308 and 175 smk's to the matches. The 6BR is nice,but 107 gn to 175 gn helps on those days
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Old November 6, 2013, 06:57 AM   #45
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Do you also shoot F/TR?
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Old November 6, 2013, 07:07 AM   #46
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Semi- I used to shoot FTR. Then I had to admitt to my self that I can't shot off a Bi pod if my life depended on it. Switch to F Class. Im 52 and have a little bit of a wobble when I try FTR. That laying on the belly really help with that. I have a few that are trying to talk me into Bench Rest,but for now F Class is very fun and one humbling experience for me. I hold my own very well,but have so much to learn about doping the wind.

Ther's a lot of good people in here ( knowledge wise ). I can put a lot of faith in what Bart say's. The saying that still floats around a lot is--The 308 is inherently a very accurate rifle. More so than others in it class ( 30-30,30-06, 300 ) I believe this to be true. In all my matches and shooting time. I never see any one shooting any of those calibers in matches. Not that they are not as good,but you just don't see it. All the matches I go to, It is run by 308's,6.5,6MM,ect ect. Never a 30-06,243,25-06.300's. So I have to go with the 308 as the best in that category. I still stay with what I said earlier. The 308 is the best all around set up,but is the best at no one thing,just good at all of them. I think if just one rifle was to be purchased for hunting,matches,paper punching,varmint, ect,ect, The 308 would be the one to go with. But that's just MHO and I am old and out dated.Vintage 60 series model.
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:52 AM   #47
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Same as the 30-06.
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:55 AM   #48
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I agree the .308 is good at everything, but not best at anything. (I said as much earlier) I own a .308, I reload for it. It's a great all-round cartridge and thats it's strong suit. But my point was it's not the best at any one thing. As far as military rounds, it is obsolete. The only thing keeping it around is cost and the military's tenacious grip on what's familiar.

Barts points about the .308 shooting the smallest groups and being the choice for service rifles is about moot. If you had a race between fiats and yugos and fiats won, you still couldn't go around saying fiats were the fastest cars in the world. If I happened to see a saturn ion racing a dodge viper down a mountain road and the ion was in front, I couldn't really say that saturn ions are faster than dodge vipers. Not that anyone would believe me anyway. Even if I raced cars myself. Especially if a viper held the world record at driving down that mountain.
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Old November 6, 2013, 10:50 AM   #49
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Keep in mind that being phased out by a military does not mean it is phased out by shooters.

The 30-06 is not used by our military, but it’s still the most popular big game round sold in America.
The 45-70 is still popular enough to have several gun companies making rifles for it.
The 45 Colt is quite popular in revolvers despite being phased out almost 100 years ago by our army.

In Europe today both the 8X57 and the 7.62X54R are popular for sportsmen.
In Australia New Zealand and Canada the 303 British has a very strong following.

Heck, I still earn most of my living making flintlocks, and I know 6 men in Wyoming, Montana and Nevada that make a full time living making old fashioned bows and wood arrows.
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Old November 6, 2013, 11:04 AM   #50
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Generally, hunting rifles don't wear out. Given how many hunting rifles are chambered in .308, the cartridge will be around pretty much forever, looks like to me.

All in all, looks like to me that competition target shooting and military use are pretty much irrelevant to ongoing use by a much larger group of shooters.
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