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Old October 23, 2013, 12:43 PM   #26
chewie146
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There are small FFLs, but no decent store fronts with used guns. As I said, commercial real estate is absolutely insane. It's an odd situation out here. There was one some years back, but it closed. Now there's nothing close. The next best thing is Wal-Mart in Espanola. Part of the problem is that mark up has to be too high and people would rather just drive to Albuquerque.
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Old October 23, 2013, 12:45 PM   #27
Kachok
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Brian factory 1:10" twist is not rated to stabalize 105gr VLDs they say 1:8" minimum for them, the highest BC VLD that they say will work properly in a 1:10 is the 95gr classic hunter with a BC of .427, while 140gr VLDs will stabalize through a standard 1:8" 6.5mm and that has a vastly superior .612 BC, now if you compare to the less common 1:9" 243 cals they can use the non "classic" 95gr vld which has a BC of .480.
Now let's skip the rare super low drag bullets and just look at more common hunting bullets.
100gr .243" Partition .384 BC
140gr .264" Partiton .490 BC

100gr .243" Game King .430BC
140gr .265" Game King .495 BC

95gr .243" Ballistic Tip .379 BC
140gr .264" Ballistic Tip .509 BC
You can see that across the board the 6.5mms have a noticeable ballistic advantage. Even with lighter bullets in the 6.5mm they have higher BC like the 123gr LS with a BC of .547 or the 123gr SST with a BC of .510.
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Old October 23, 2013, 12:47 PM   #28
Paul B.
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Back when I lived in Nevada in the late 1970's, I used a .243 for coyotes and my load used the Hornady 100 gr. Spire point bullets. During the winter of 78/79 coyote hides were really bringing in serious money so mangled hides were not what I was looking for. Most of the time the Hornady bullet would open up just enough to kill the yote, yet not enough to make a massive exit wound. Note that I said, "Most of the time." Even on the larger holes I was able to sew the hide up enough to make it sellable most of the time.
Down here where I now live, coyote hides are mangy as all get out so rather than call them, I do spot and stalk with whatever rifle I feel like using.
If the OP is using a .270 at this time, and wants to save the hides, frankly I can't off hand think of any particular bullet at a usable speed that wouldn't come close to making a two piece coyote. I'd save the .270 for bear and get a .223 or .243 for use on the yotes.
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Old October 23, 2013, 01:03 PM   #29
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
You can see that across the board the 6.5mms have a noticeable ballistic advantage.
Yes they do, I don't dispute that but it's not quite the "worst versus best case" scenario you presented the first time. It is, as I said, a difference of about 0.05 BC. Real, but not huge.

A 1:10 twist will not stabilize HP or metal pointed tip 105gr bullets in .243 but it will stabilize polymer tipped bullets like the A-Max. The 105gr A-Max has a listed BC of 0.500, better than your 140gr GK and only 0.009 worse than your 140gr BT, both of which require a 1:7.5 or so twist, whereas the 105gr in .243 will stabilize in 1:10.

Let's look at apples to apples, 140gr Hornady A-Max 6.5 versus 105gr Hornady A-Max .243, using Hodgdon published data. 140gr roughly 2650, 105gr 2,950. All variables unchanged. 5" vital zone:

140gr 327 MPBR max height 152 1416 ft.lbs at MBPR
105gr 358 MPBR max height 167 1228 ft.lbs at MBPR

Certainly, I can find bullets that will show the .243 "worse" and the 6.5 "better" but the differences with fair comparisons are very minor, in either direction.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; October 23, 2013 at 01:13 PM.
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Old October 23, 2013, 01:19 PM   #30
Kachok
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They don't require a 1:7.5 I shoot a whole host of low drag 140s in 1:8s without a hint of stability issues including the very long poly tipped SSTs and HP VLDs.
Yes the 105gr .243 (.500 BC) A-Max is impressive and several people have said they would stabilize in a factory barrel but the 140gr .264 A-Max is a whopping .585BC.
The 243 cal tends to shoot a little flatter due to higher muzzle speeds but out past 300 the 6.5mm is much more versatile.
Edit: BTW a modern action 6.5x55 can push 140gr to 2950fps in a long tube, not quite as fast as a 243 will push it's 105gr but it makes up that speed pretty quick.
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Old October 23, 2013, 07:00 PM   #31
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Info for the OP:

Don't let a rifle you like slip away 'cause it doesn't have irons. My newest rifle, a Micro 7 (remington 7 from AAC) didn't come with irons but otherwise was everything I wanted. Short, light & accurate with more than enough power for things around here. Maybe I got lucky as I've read a few unfavorabe reviews but mine works flawlessly & has a great trigger off the shelf.

Since 300blk wouldn't be suitable (I'm guessing it'd be a pretty poor bear caliber) but you can get the 7 in lots of calibers that would suit your mission well. Personally I'd look at 260rem. I've got a soft spot for 6.5mm.

I had my local smith put a factory Remington ramp on the barrel, then I added a skinner brass partridge front sight along with his 'lopro' rear peep sight after taking off the picatinny. Total investment about $150.

It's a bit if a workout to dail it in, as your only windage adjustment is drifting the front sight but my first time out to the range I got it dead on with a sight tool I made from a little c-clamp.

That remington is a drean to shoot. I can lay down & with a sling shoot a consistant 2" group. That's not benchrest but easily good enough for the fields.

Happy rifle shopping!
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Old October 23, 2013, 09:47 PM   #32
chewie146
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Bears around here aren't the "lions and tigers and bears" bears. That 300 blackout has intrigued me as well. Ballistics with a 120 grainer sure outdo any handgun. I should be clear. If I'm going directly after bears, I would use a bigger gun. I'm looking for something in the "apply as needed" category.
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Old October 24, 2013, 07:41 AM   #33
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Well if you happen to have .223 brass & .308 projectiles collecting dust like I did you get to make ammo for pennies on the dollar. If not, I'd investigate price / availability first as it's not easy to come by ammo & when I do it's $$$$!

I'm fortunate as the local range feeds me with hundredsof cases, I'm using lead bullets & burning powders I inherited that up until now, I had no use for.

It's a pretty sweet gig, at least for me. YMMV
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:54 AM   #34
chewie146
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223 brass is relatively easy to come by as a scrounger, and .308 projectiles are in no short supply around here. I still have some left over from other guns. That may be worth looking in to. Thanks for the info!
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Old October 24, 2013, 04:50 PM   #35
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[QUOTE]["In your shoes I'd spend $350 on a Ruger American in 308 or 243. Pay a gunsmith $100-$150 or so to add decent iron sights and later put a decent low powered scope on it for around $200. The Rugers are just over 6 lbs, will be under 7 lbs with a scope on it. That is lighter than lever action 30-30's unscoped and will outperform it in every way. It will be cheaper too."

This./QUOTE]

I like that idea but if it were me I would get a Vanguard S2 in .243.

I have a .243 that I use strictly for coyotes but would be comfortable using it for deer and bear(if they had bear where I live).

But if I had to get rid of all my rifles except for one it would be my CZ. 6.5x55. I think you can get a new Howa or Zastava in your price range. I'm thinking about getting a Zastava when funds allow and shooting 140 grainers in it and 130 grainers in the CZ or vice versa.
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Old October 26, 2013, 12:49 AM   #36
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Caliber you choose is very location dependant. No way would I want to go banging away at coyotes on a regular basis with a 7mm or .30cal. in many eastern states including semi-populated farm states like Iowa. Even so called "varmint" bullets are too heavily constructed in those calibers and ricochet all over the country.

First thought I had was a Ruger Hawkeye Compact or a Rem M7 in .243. The older M7's came with irons, not sure about either model on todays new market. Why is that? Cause you don't need em. Period. Drop that from a requirement.
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Old October 26, 2013, 01:40 AM   #37
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Irons were dropped because it's cheaper to make a gun without them. Period. Less part and less tooling. There's nothing wrong with having a back-up sight on a rifle.
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Old October 26, 2013, 04:55 AM   #38
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First I would ask, do you reload? If so I am very partial to the 7-08 in model Seven as many others have said, I just traded a older 1 with iron sights for a newer bdl, they shoot very well and the triggers are adjustable, you can load anywhere from a 100 gr hollow point at about 3000 fps to a 175 soft point if so desired. Like I said, " if you reload" If you dont all I could ever find for the 08 were 140 gr soft points. Just my 2 cents..
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Old October 26, 2013, 10:20 PM   #39
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Now I dont want this to get into a battle over hunting ethics. That being said my grandfather as a goverment trapper back in the day took hundereds of bear in the great state of oregon with nothing more then a .22 mag pistol. If you are looking for a FUR gun with the ability to take a bear i hate to say it but i would look at one of the large .22 chamberings. Will it drop a bear in its tracks? probably not. Will it kill one with a properly placed shot with the right bullet? No doubts in my mind. However if saving fur is you're biggest concern then you cant beat a .223 .222 .22-250 with varmit bullets. And you can still get decent results with heavy for caliber bullets. Seems to me that wasting a $50 hide is not worth such a large chambering for a fur gun. Bobcats are pulling a premium right now and so are coyotes. And yes I would shot a 250lb black bear with a 22-250. Just make sure if you do go this route get a fast twist barrel that can handle the heavy .22 cal bullets. Just my $.02. A runner up for that if you want iron sights is a SKS. with the FMJ's they punch right through a coyote and with hollow points im sure would be good on a bear within 100 yards or so.
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Old October 27, 2013, 02:24 PM   #40
chewie146
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If it were legal, I would consider a heavy, high SD .22 caliber bullet for bear, but it's not legal in NM. It's 24 or larger only. That leaves the .243 as the minimum for both, but I'm thinking a .223 is probably the way to go. I have the .270.
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