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Old October 27, 2013, 08:52 AM   #51
Constantine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers View Post
You said that you couldn't find evidence of the use of alternate weapons in a real situation.
Here's the story of the infamous 1986 FBI Miami shootout with at least three instances of lost guns, the use of backup, multiple and the other guy's weapons.
All in a single and well documented incident.
Judge for yourself the merits of being capable with more than just the one you carry.
(And hope the bad guy isn't).
http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html
My lord -.-

Okay, remember when I said the whole thing about driving different cars? It can be done without taking a formula one course training on it. It's simple and basic to operate another vehicle. It's the same song and dance.


Same with handguns. Same darn thing. We're gun enthusiast. Your gun most likely has the same function of another gun. In that rare rabbit out of the hat scenario, you'll more than likely be able to use that outside weapon. It'll be mediocre, and not as well as the weapon you've trained extensively with. But bullets will be flying out of that barrel nonetheless. Keeping you in the fight.

Unless by your logic once again, you stop time and say "Be right back. Let me run a magazine through this at the range."

Last edited by Constantine; October 27, 2013 at 10:31 AM. Reason: iphone typos underlined.
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Old October 27, 2013, 10:10 AM   #52
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Quote:
My lord -.-

Okay, remember when I said the whole thing about driving different cars? It can be don't without taking a formula one course training on it. It simple and basic to operate another vehicle. It's the same song and dance.


Same with handguns. Same darn thing. We're gun enthusiast. Your gun most likely has the same function of another gun. In that rare rabbit out of the hat scenario, you'll more than likely be able to use that outside weapon. It'll be mediocre, and not as well as the weapon you've trained extensively with. But bullets will be flying out of that barrel nonetheless. Keeping you in the fight.

Unless by your logic once again, you stop time and say "Be right back. Let me run a magazine through this at the range."
I tend to agree with Constantine's point and will add that there are only so many ways to fight with arms, its not all that deep. Should you be reasonably proficient with your selected platform? sure.. Should you have a good understanding of the methodology of fighting tactics and a fighting mindset.. sure. Do you have to be as good with all manner of weapons and arms in order to be formidable? No, I think that is over-intellectualizing the process. I believe that there is a fighting science, I will not dispute that but when people begin to describe 2 men fighting in an alley like a Military campaign, I consider it equally over thought.
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Last edited by FireForged; October 27, 2013 at 12:22 PM.
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Old October 27, 2013, 12:03 PM   #53
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Fireforged,

In the moment, with tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, threat fixation, and everything else happening, many of those things are not intuitive.
Sure they are, any trained/practiced response can be intuitive during a crisis... Its is why we train. Tunnel vision auditory exclusion, threat fixation yadda yadda are not harbingers of doom.. They are part of a prewired survival mode that effects everyone differently and to different degrees. A person can certainly benefit from the fact that it is part of our hard wiring system and benefit even further if they understand it and manage it so that they can work through the crisis. Anyone who has ever faired well to avoid what seemed to be a imminent car crash has experienced the same thing. If you ask them how many times the applied the brake, gas or how many times the turned the wheel left or right, they will say ["I don't know, I just did it"]. If a person has trained and has become proficient in the use or operation of any device, machine, tool, vehicle.. They will likely default to their particular level of experience during a crisis without much thought. Scientific terms, Military sounding acronyms, color codes, decision trees and force ladders are all well and good but at some point a hyper focus on such things (outside the classroom) may turn what should be a millisecond consideration into the realm of overthinking.

Quote:
As for drawing fast potentially preventing the need to shoot... Yes. I have lived through it. If you identify a threat and deploy a deterrent fast enough, you may persuade the threat to change their thinking.
Sure, but where I disagree is what is on a defenders mind when they make the decision to pull their weapon in a life threatening crisis. There will always be those situation where a person does not have to use force or should not but in the moment (in the mind) of the defender there is resolute intent and passive intent. One could argue all day about the pros and cons of each mindset as it relates to fighting but I politely disagree with the passive aspect of pulling a weapon.

Quote:
In either case, the time it would take to process the question, "where is my gun?!" could have been the difference in being assaulted or not. By knowing what and where we carry without having to think about it, each of us avoided having to fire.
A person is going to process "where is my gun" no matter what.. its a nano-second decision process that begins after the brain receives a specific stimulus. Your buddy didn't present his weapon by accident, he decided to do it and part of that was deciding where his gun was. The time it take to complete the act (after you decide to do it) can certainly be a factor but the nano-second it took to process "where is my gun" is not really in the same universe and probably not actually measurable.
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Last edited by FireForged; October 27, 2013 at 12:13 PM.
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Old October 27, 2013, 02:48 PM   #54
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Quote:
Here's the story of the infamous 1986 FBI Miami shootout with at least three instances of lost guns, the use of backup, multiple and the other guy's weapons.
All in a single and well documented incident.
The story is about a law enforcement shootout with two armed men. It doesn't provide much insight as far as typical civilian self-defense shootings go, but it does bring up a good point. If I were an LEO, I would do my best to be as proficient as possible with my partner's weapon(s) and would make sure that I at least had the basic ability to operate all the issue weapons for the department.

For an LEO, the likelihood of using a partner's weapon, or another officer's weapon is tremendously higher than that of a citizen using a scavenged gun.
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Old October 28, 2013, 02:10 AM   #55
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It is apparent that there are some permanent disconnects in this discussion. Rather than spend the time required to crystallize each point, I think it is more time effective to bow out of this one.

Be well.
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Old October 28, 2013, 08:23 AM   #56
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Yeah, we've probably beat this one to death.
For those who would like to gain more experience with guns not normally used or owned, there's ways to do it without mortgaging the house or filling up the safe.
Many ranges have gun rentals available, for a fraction of the price of buying anything,
Or
The next time you go to the range, offer to swap with whoever is there.
It would be a rare enthusiast who wouldn't jump at the chance to share.
Either one is a way to learn the operations of more types of guns, so at least they wouldn't be a mystery should you find one in your hands.
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Old October 28, 2013, 07:32 PM   #57
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A little off topic. I returned to the range today. I was not able to shoot the tree I had shot before due to maintenance I assume. I instead shot dots. I took my 26,19,17. I shot all three and wasn't really surprised with the results. I then swapped the warren tactical from my 19 to my 26 with intentions of carrying my 26. What I found did surprise me. I found I shot the 19 far more accurate with the trijicon sights. I realize that accuracy isn't everything but its alot. If nothing else I have great confidence in my accuracy with the 19. I already felt confident in my draw time to first shot with it and follow up shots are on point. I think for a while I'm gonna focus on my 19. I will maintain proficiency with other guns but 90% of my shooting will be my 19.
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Old October 28, 2013, 09:22 PM   #58
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I'm gonna focus on my 19. I will maintain proficiency with other guns but 90% of my shooting will be my 19.

Perfect. That's my go to handgun too.
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Old October 28, 2013, 10:24 PM   #59
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Either one is a way to learn the operations of more types of guns, so at least they wouldn't be a mystery should you find one in your hands.
Being generally familiar with the controls and operation of various types of firearms is commendable. That would be a worthy goal--one that most people could reasonably be expected to achieve.
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Old October 29, 2013, 10:54 AM   #60
g.willikers
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camsdaddy,
Is it the gun or the sights?
Really good, and easy to see, sights can make just about any gun a favorite.
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Old October 30, 2013, 03:39 PM   #61
camsdaddy
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I dont know. I found I shot the 19 with the Trijicon sights better than I shot it with the XS or the Warren Tactical sights. With the Trijicons I shot the 19 better than the 26 or the 17 with the same sights.
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Old October 30, 2013, 04:15 PM   #62
Constantine
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Yeah. I prefer Trijicon HD's on my defensive pistols over any other sight on the market.
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Old November 6, 2013, 05:41 PM   #63
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While there have been days I have been tempted to carry larger and smaller I have pretty well remained consistant. On Sunday I carried a S&W Model 64 snub for a bit. Otherwise I am holdeing fairly steady. I think once I have carried my 19 exclusively for a while. I will begin the search of choosing between my 60, 64 and my Glock 26 for a Sunday gun
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