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Old October 21, 2013, 07:11 PM   #1
camsdaddy
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Range report seeking the perfect edc

I went it the range today. I sorta ran a 5x5x5x5as described by Mr Werner as 5 rounds, 5 yards in 5 seconds in a 5" circle. For the sake of ammo I ran 3 rounds at 5 yards in 3 seconds on a 4 1/2" tree. The results are as follows.
This time I only had the 60,26&19. All from aiwb white undershirt and cotton button up as concealment. First shots averaged
60-2.06
26-1.72
19-1.74
I ran 10 string of 3 round cycles. I found myself focused too much on speed. With the 26 and 60 50% of the strings had a miss with the 19 it was only 30% of them. I was not happy knowing that 30-50% of the time I was shooting an innocent bystander. Of course my target may be a little larger than a 4 1/2" steel plate.
I found my draw times with my 60 slow but was pleased with the bobbed hammer I just did as it did not catch my shirt on the draw. I debate larger grips but that would sacrifice pocket carry. I was really happy that I could take my time and hit those plates out to 25 yards quite regularly.
I really wish I had taken my 17 just for reference. Of all of the guns I have I shoot my 4" 13 (my 3" 65 is close) and my 17 the best. The weight of the 65 & the 13 hurt my back. I can carry a fully loaded 17 for less weight and almost 3 times the ammo to miss with. Accuracy wise slow fire I shoot the 26 and the 19 about the same. I shoot my 60 as probably better than my 2" 64. I figure I'm gonna eliminate it. I have intentions of whittling down my choices. I would like to to get down to one or two and really focus on those as edc. I realize the perfect edc doesn't exist. I just have to commit and focus and rather than just blasting rounds I want to really work on dry fire and running the gun I choose.
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Old October 22, 2013, 05:24 AM   #2
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Sounds like a good exercise and you're sorting things out pretty well. I think "perfect" is a very individual characteristic and you're doing it the right way.
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Old October 22, 2013, 07:44 AM   #3
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I think its a journey. I only chose the drill to help filter and also to allow me to track hopeful progress over time.
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Old October 22, 2013, 09:43 AM   #4
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Keep training at it. With any gun you pick up and train with you'll get good with over time. It doesn't come over night and changing guns like underwear won't help with the process either. People focus too much on the gun being the culprit to speed and accuracy. Pick a gun you like and can handle plinking and manipulating with, stick with it, and train hard with it. It'll take time and be rewarding. I learned that going between different mechanisms and sizes of guns throws you off and prolongs the learning/muscle memory you'd of gained much quicker if you stuck to just one.
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:09 AM   #5
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On the other hand, it can pay to get as comfortable as possible with many different types of guns.
There's no guarantee that the one available will be the one most used for practice.
I regularly take different handguns to the range for practice.
A revolver, and a couple of different semiautos.
Different calibers, different recoil, grips and triggers.
For shotguns, both a pump and autoloader for practice.
For rifle, there's no harm in practicing with several types, either.
If cleaning many guns isn't inviting, rotate the guns for each practice day.
This approach could come in real handy.
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Last edited by g.willikers; October 22, 2013 at 10:14 AM.
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:16 AM   #6
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^ Yeah, that's fine.

I see it as being a gun enthusiast and owning a gun for self defense as two entirely different things. I myself am a prime example of the difference.

At the range I love to shoot my Browning High-Powers, 1911, and Smith and Wesson Model 19-3. However, I would never carry or trust my life to any of them. But I like them a lot and I think they're beautiful works of art.

For concealed carry, nothing beats Glock or SIG for me. I've been carrying only Glock for a little over the past year now. I carried SIG Sauer for about 2 years prior to that. Both I trained with prior to carrying them. I trust my life to SIG and Glock.

I don't know, I guess different stroke for different folks applies here. Just stating mine.
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:16 AM   #7
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Posted this on a current forum.
I am currently going through this as well. I would feel comfortable with any of the three sizes. Yesterday I ran the 26 vs the 19 and found the 19 a little better at speed. I found I shoot them both about the same at distance on slow aimed fire. I plan to take my 17 next trip and run the 17 vs the 19. I also plan to put the 3 dot Trijicons from my 26 on the 19 so that I will be running the same sight picture. I will then put the Warren Tactical tritium front/black rear on the 26 and then compare the three times. Of course the 17/19 chop is so tempting I cant even go into that right now.
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Of course the 17/19 chop is so tempting I cant even go into that right now.
I have that done to my 17. It's my race gun. You need to see a pic of that ugly thing.

My CCW is a G19.
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Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:24 AM   #9
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I find I shoot the 17 a little better. I am curious if its the sight radius or extended grip or the sights. Thats why I plan to change my sights around to eliminate that factor. Im trying real hard to resist buying a 17/19 listed on a local forum. I carry in a Smartcarry often and find the 19 grip being the threshold that I can tuck my shirt and it not print. Do you mind me asking why you prefer the 19 for carry?
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:33 AM   #10
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My favorite practice stage is the good old El Presidente.
If you get tired of the 5x5x5, give it a try.
Three 8" circles, one yard apart, set up at 10 yards.
Some do it at 7 yds.

If the range doesn't allow setting up multiple targets, spread the targets around on a single backing as much as possible.
The effect is simiar.

Begin facing up range, back to the targets.
If that's not allowed, no matter, just add 2 sec. to the final time.

At the signal, turn(?), and engage each target with two rounds,
Reload with a fresh mag,
Reengage each target with two rounds.
12 rounds total,
All one run.
Good time is around 9 sec for mere mortals.
Half that for top guns.
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:34 AM   #11
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It's in the middle of the 26 (which was built for CCW and as a back up gun) and the 17 (which was made to be a military and law enforcement duty weapon).

So it's small enough for concealed carry. Big enough for serious use. As we know, smaller guns = more snappy.

It's my all time favorite CCW handgun.
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:36 AM   #12
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Greetings, Father of Cam

Allow me a word of caution. The exercise you describe is not a bad exercise, and serves as a 'pop quiz' to check on those specific skills. However, do not allow yourself to focus and practice one exercise only. It becomes a 'trick' that, while impressive, has no value in the real world. (Unless some evil-doer stands exactly five yards to your front, does not move and signals you to start shooting.)

A concealed weapon needs to be carried in the car, in the grocery store, at the barber shop (assuming you get a haircut from time to time) and so forth. Also, you may have to draw your weapon from positions other than the 'ready stance'. Consider those things also.
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:57 AM   #13
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No doubt. I try to mix up what Im doing and practice and shoot from contact to 25+. I am using the 5x5x5 as simply a thermometer.
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Old October 22, 2013, 08:54 PM   #14
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I like shooting a reactive target, when you hit it, it bounces around, so you have to chase it down wherever it might go.
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Old October 23, 2013, 04:23 PM   #15
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Yesterday I was 95% convinced the 19 is the gun for me. I was reminded why I quit carrying it the last time. I have had back troubles before. I dont know if its the size of the gun or the weight.I think it may be the pressure against nerves. I have in the past had back issues. I know that carry isnt supposed to be comfortable its suppose to comforting. I also know I enjoy playing with my kids and back pain prevents that. I cant afford the testing etc I had to do the last time I went through this pain. I almost wonder if an exercise may help. For me concealment is uber important. I cant take the chance. I work close to others all day and am active. I find I can carry in a SmartCarry and have complete concealment even in a tucked shirt and blue jeans. I find the discomfort doesnt change if I tighten or loosen my belt which is an instructor 5 stitch. I find my JM Kydex comfortable but since it rides above the belt for a positive draw I find the rear of the slide and the butt of the gun print even with the wedge. I feel I have two options. I can find another or similar holster for a 17 hoping the longer length will allow the wedge to curl the slide and butt in further or I can carry my 26 which doesnt seem to cause me pain in the smartcarry. Of course the 60 in a pocket or AIWB is always an option but I know I run the Glocks better. If I can carry them that would be my preference.
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Old October 23, 2013, 05:58 PM   #16
RBid
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Range report seeking the perfect edc

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers View Post
On the other hand, it can pay to get as comfortable as possible with many different types of guns.
There's no guarantee that the one available will be the one most used for practice.
I'm challenging this notion.

We aren't living in action movies. We live in a world where we stage or carry firearms of our choosing so that they are available for use. I not only CAN guarantee that my primary practice weapon will be available, I DO. I wear it every day, all day. If I'm at the mall when a shooting kicks off, I have it on me. If someone tried to mug me downtown, I have it on me. If someone kicks in my front door while I'm in the living room, I have it on me. Because I do the vast majority of my practice with it, always have it with me, and am almost 100% certain to never scavenge and subsequently engage in a gunfight with an unfamiliar weapon, I am better prepared than I would be if I rotated weapons for carry, HD, etc.

Scavenging weapons is not a realistic concern. Even if we say, "let's agree to disagree on that", it is immediately obvious that the likelihood of scavenging a weapon in a private citizen role is a statistical zero, meaning literally more rare than 1/100 defensive firearm uses. Investing time in training for doing so is akin to spending time practicing driving in reverse , then throwing an E-brake 180 at full speed.

This isn't to say, "you should only ever shoot with one gun", but I am absolutely saying that it is most time effective to do 100% of your draw practice with a firearm that you carry every day. Trigger control translates across all firearms. Draw practice and such SHOULD always be with carry weapons.
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Old October 23, 2013, 08:45 PM   #17
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RBid, that was taken right out of my brain vicariously through your post. If that makes any sense....

Perfect response to that.
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Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:37 AM   #18
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So, you guys can only drive one kind of car?
With only an automatic transmission?
Or only be able to use a computer, but not a smart phone?
Thanks, but I'll stick to my guns on this one.
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:16 AM   #19
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Nope ^ there's a daily driver. = CCW

And there's the weekend car = What's in the safe.

Sorry you see it with the glass half empty instead of half full.


I'll stick to what I know on being adequate with one instead of mediocre with all.
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Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:21 AM   #20
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Who says you have to settle for being mediocre?
Adequate?
It sounds like you are limiting yourself, too much.
That attitude ain't gonna' allow you to win that hundred grand on Top Shot.
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Last edited by g.willikers; October 24, 2013 at 09:27 AM.
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:35 AM   #21
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Quote:
adjective: adequate
1.
satisfactory or acceptable in quality or quantity.

Quote:
adjective: mediocre
1.
of only moderate quality; not very good.
Anyone who says they've mastered anything is:

Quote:
adjective: cocky
1.
conceited or arrogant, esp. in a bold or impudent way.




Playing games to win money, have a blast.

Defending your life requires a little more seriousness.

For concealed carry, adequate triumphs mediocre.
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Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:40 AM   #22
g.willikers
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You actually think that you're going to get in the last word?
Ha, I learned from my wife.
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:09 PM   #23
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"I was not happy knowing that 30-50% of the time I was shooting an innocent bystander."

Then 5 yards is too far. Get closer, then shoot. No long training need for that, just being a little foolish or crazy or both. But still, close works, no?
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Old October 25, 2013, 06:49 PM   #24
RBid
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Range report seeking the perfect edc

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers View Post
So, you guys can only drive one kind of car?
With only an automatic transmission?
Or only be able to use a computer, but not a smart phone?
Thanks, but I'll stick to my guns on this one.
OK. I'll play.

1. Let's pretend I DID say that I only ever shoot one gun, and let's pretend that the difference in shooting a Sig 226 is so different than shooting my Glock 19 as to be completely alien.

Guess what?

No matter what happens, my Glock 19 is available to me. If we assume that I have used 100% of my practice and training time on it, then it stands to reason that I am more proficient with it than I would be had I spread my time among multiples.

Am I at a disadvantage?


2. How often do you think people scavenge firearms, then deploy that scavenged weapon for self defense? This is a serious question. I have NEVER heard of this happening. More specifically, how often does someone (a) scavenge a weapon, (b) holster it, (c) present it from the holster for self defense? Has this EVER happened, outside of the movies?

The follow up question is:

How often do you think private citizens benefit from practicing with a variety of handguns?

Better question:

Do you believe that a person actually gains a performance advantage by rotating firearms, and splitting training time across multiple designs? If they do... why do all of our elite shooters, military, LE, and professional, specifically train with what they use in service or competition?
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Old October 26, 2013, 08:15 AM   #25
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In regards to misses. I am certain that the best way to resolve misses is to focus more on accuracy and less on the clock. I am convinced in a fight you can not miss fast enough to win. I know the guns are capable because I can hit those plates at 3 to 4 times the distance with any of them. I need to focus on smooth and accurate and fast will come.
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