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Old October 22, 2013, 01:52 AM   #26
Elerius
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I guess I'm in the minority but break in periods have never bothered me. As long as the gun actually functions without issue after it has broken in, I see no problem.

I don't exactly agree that guns built for accuracy should be given the chance that normal production, or duty guns, based on closer tolerances. If I buy a Kahr that DOES require breaking in, and worked flawlessly afterwards, wouldn't this mean that this normal production gun not intended for absolute accuracy was also built to fine tolerance that smoothed out with use? As far as I'm concerned a gun that needs its break in period, as long as it is flawless afterwards, has quite possibly slightly finer tolerances then an identical model than one that requires no break in. If that argument is followed logically then a gun that hiccups during break in is superior in accuracy and fit then one that doesn't hiccup.

In any case, I feel break ins are acceptable.
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Old October 22, 2013, 01:50 PM   #27
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As long as the gun actually functions without issue after it has broken in, I see no problem.

A big "if" as I see it. If the gun doesn't function correctly after the recommended/required break-in period involving the expenditure of anywhere from between 200 to 500 rounds or so, you are now back to square one and you have a problem. When the gun is returned from the factory/gunsmith "fixed", are you required to go through another break-in procedure? Does anyone reimburse you for the cost of ammunition needed to make the gun run as it should have from the time of purchase? Sorry, but I'm of the opinion that when a company produces merchandise for sale (and I don't care if it's a Sunbeam toaster or a Colt 1911 pistol), the customer has every right to an expectation that the product he purchased should function properly "straight out of the box", with no lame excuses if it doesn't.
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Old October 22, 2013, 02:23 PM   #28
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Any gun that is out of the box malfunctioning, it's a heaping pile in my opinion.
It should never leave the manufacturer doing that. We pay to have a functioning weapon. Period.

Now, later on down the road and a couple hundred to thousand rounds later it has a few for whatever reason. I'm talking malfunctions, real malfunctions. Not bad ammo, limp wristing, or riding the slide stop for a premature lock back or no lock up. Real issues. I can do things myself..change the recoil springs, etc etc.

However I never have reached a point where one of my personal guns malfunctions because of me not maintaining it properly. I'm from the school of "clean your gun no matter what". Meaning 10rds, 100rds, 1,000,rds you name it's getting a full cleaning as it would with a 10,000rd count dirty gun. Just the way I'm wired.

So, out of the box and it's running the way it shouldn't be running after I've taken it down, cleaned it, and greased it. I either sell it or return it to the manufacturer.
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Old October 22, 2013, 02:30 PM   #29
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Any gun that is out of the box malfunctioning, it's a heaping pile in my opinion.
Agreed.
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Old October 22, 2013, 06:23 PM   #30
IdahoG36
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I'm from the school of "clean your gun no matter what". Meaning 10rds, 100rds, 1,000,rds you name it's getting a full cleaning as it would with a 10,000rd count dirty gun. Just the way I'm wired.
Same here. I was taught to be that way from childhood. My dad was big on keeping his guns clean. So, if I go out and shoot 10 rounds or 1000 rounds, it gets fully cleaned and lubed.
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Old October 22, 2013, 06:46 PM   #31
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If it was designed as a defensive pistol, then any use of the phrase, "it'll take 200-300 rounds to break it in, 'cause we build 'em so tight"...is absolute BS. For over a thousand dollars for some of the "K" offerings, you'd think they'd work every time, right out of the box. Rod
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Old October 22, 2013, 09:18 PM   #32
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Thought a few of you might enjoy reading this NIJ testing info for LE service pistols (from the 90's).

Note parts of sections 4 (and further on, section 5) about firing tests requirements.

4.6 Firing Requirement
4.6.1 Model Qualification Firing Requirement
When tested in accordance with Section 5.6.1, the pistol shall fire 600 rounds of ammunition with no structural or mechanical failures and no more than five malfunctions. Of the five allowable malfunctions no more than three shall be firing malfunctions not attributable to faulty ammunition (see Sec. 5.6)


Autoloading Pistols For Police Officers NIJ Standard-0112.03 https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/173943.pdf

I've seen a report regarding pistol testing done by a major fed LE agency at the end of the 80's, not available online (that I've seen), which basically said that a stoppage/malfunction rate in excess of 2% (or 2.5%) was considered to be unacceptable. (I'd have to dig out my manual notes and look it up again.) It was surprising to see the pistol makes/models represented in that limited testing which didn't demonstrate performance considered to be acceptable at that time, but which were submitted for different testing in following years, to the same agency, and which then met the acceptable standards. Things change ... and equipment improves to meet whatever standards & specifications may be involved.

I sometimes suspect that there may be a segment of private citizen firearms owners who may have different "expectations" and "personal standards" than those of some governmental owners/users.

Just a thought.
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Last edited by fastbolt; October 22, 2013 at 09:24 PM.
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Old October 23, 2013, 10:32 AM   #33
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I sometimes suspect that there may be a segment of private citizen firearms owners who may have different "expectations" and "personal standards" than those of some governmental owners/users.
With many of my guns, my expectations are certainly higher than those of government users! With some of my guns, I paid a heck of a lot more than the government did for their guns. Guns purchased by The Government are a combination of 1) the cheapest crap they can get away with and 2) graft to large political contributors.

In my other posts, I was simply pointing out that I wouldn't automatically write off every make of a particular model gun as being "worthless" just because some are prone to having problems. Sometimes a little work will get you something special; not always, but sometime.
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Old October 23, 2013, 11:04 AM   #34
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1. Some manufacturer would build a tight gun and break it in for you by whatever method they use and add the cost to the selling price. Some manufacturer will build a gun so well-fitted that it equals a tight broken in gun - how much does it cost?
2. Some manufacturer would build the tight gun and expect the buyer to do the break in with both parties expecting a functioning gun after break in.
3. Some manufacturer would build a "loose" gun so no break in is required.
=========
I see breaking in as final fitting. So, depending on what I am buying, it is acceptable.
=========
Please do not confuse "breaking in" with "fixing".
A gun that is prone to malfunction because of bad design is a bad gun.

Last edited by pilpens; October 23, 2013 at 11:09 AM.
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Old October 23, 2013, 11:07 AM   #35
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I'm from the school of "clean your gun no matter what". Meaning 10rds, 100rds, 1,000,rds you name it's getting a full cleaning as it would with a 10,000rd count dirty gun. Just the way I'm wired.
I get the logic behind this, and I agree for the most part... Unless I'm on a binge of shooting a particular gun. If I know I'm going to hit the range several days in the week... shooting the same gun... there's no reason to waste my time cleaning it, until I've had my fill.
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Old October 23, 2013, 12:33 PM   #36
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Well, if it has to be ready "out of box," I should give up shooting as a hobby. I've had problems with about 50% of the guns I've purchased out of box.

And, sending them back into the manufacturer has rarely been able to solve said problems. Generally speaking, either I've sold the gun and moved on, or I've had to send them to a gunsmith for work and new parts.

I agree! Guns should work right, out of box. Do they? Sometimes... Granted, I'm one of the unluckiest people in that regard. Just ask Venom1956.
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Old October 23, 2013, 01:18 PM   #37
Uncle Malice
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I've had problems with about 50% of the guns I've purchased out of box.
I think you probably SHOULD give up shooting. It seems to not have your best interests in mind.

I could get better than 50% reliability by buying 10mm guns and shooting 40S&W out of them...

Or buying a 9mm and shooting 9x18mak out of it....

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Old October 23, 2013, 01:20 PM   #38
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^ I agree with the Uncle.

I've had 95% success with NIB handguns I've purchased to date. Which is over 35.
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Old October 23, 2013, 01:39 PM   #39
Skans
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^ I agree with the Uncle.
Yup! I own a Lorcin .380 which goes bang more than 50% of the time; and a Jennings J-22 that goes bang over 95% of the time. Must be those dern fancy 1911's that ain't no good!
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Old October 23, 2013, 02:04 PM   #40
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Out of box ready?

NIB G26, G17, M&P 9c, M&P Shield, Kahr CM9, Ruger Mk III, Beretta 9mm carbine, Ruger 10/22 takedown all worked flawlessly out of box except some bad 22LR ammo problems. Only problems have been with used guns - P32 especially.

Even the CM9 had no problems during breaking - they just want you to use the slide release the first 200 rounds, not rack slide to chamber a round.

Stick with top names and avoid 1911's if you want good chance of flawless performance.
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Old October 23, 2013, 04:52 PM   #41
Darker Loaf
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Gun Problems:
1) Hi-Standard Duramatic Pistol .22 LR: Powder burns, split cases, cycling, accuracy issues (hit high about 12"), lose rear sight. SOLD to pawn shop. I did put 5,000+ rounds through this gun. Maybe more? Can't really say it was "out of box issues." Very much a used gun.
1.5) Beretta Neos: pins worked lose during firing. Rear sight move through its own volition. However, totally accurate (barring rear sight problem) and reliable with almost any ammunition. I put roughly 1,000 rounds through that gun, but it was a loner: not mine.
2) Browning Buck Mark: Slide stop lever came of during shooting (flew off the gun), broken "top cover" due to over tightening, broke front sight by dropping barrel when cleaning. I was pretty disappointed with these issues, but I worked through them and replaced all the parts or fixed them myself. I ended up selling it to a good friend in Alaska, but I regret the decision since my next .22 LR pistol was a total dud. I put perhaps close to 10,000 rounds through that gun. Shouldn't have sold it...
3) Sig Mosquito. I shouldn't have trusted the name. After my Buck Mark, I used pretty much exclusively round-nose CCI Minimags, which is what Sig recommended. Funny, the Buck Mark towards the end would run with just about anything, and still does. The Mosquito even came with a rebate for Minimags. However, Minimags did not make the gun run. Even trying both recoil springs, I'd get about 2-3 stoppages per mag. I quickly sold it. Regretfully, I had already invested in 1000 rounds of CCI Minimags. Man, I thought I was upgrading from my Buck Mark... how wrong I was.*
4) EAA Match Witness 10mm. 2-3 stoppages per mag. Sent it back into the factory for fixing/smithing with no positive result. SOLD.
5) Kahr CW9: Not really a huge problem, but it would only feed round nose FMJ. I sold it and bought a K9 Elite which can eat hollow points or meplats with the best of them.
6) Ruger 22/45 Lite: Trigger reset issues and stoppages. I sent it into VQ and had them replace all the guts. Now it runs fine. At this point, I was sick of dealing with factories.
7) Finally my current issue: my new SAM7-SF. Problems with the safety and/or top cover. Sent back into factory to address. Sent back from Arsenal with a new safety and the same problems.

*I called the Sig factory about the Mosquito, and they were like: it's CCI's fault. That's when I decided to sell the gun. Sig didn't offer to fix it or replace it. In the all the thousands of rounds of CCI Minimags I've shot, I've had only 2-3 failure to fire that I can remember.

Last edited by Darker Loaf; October 23, 2013 at 05:00 PM.
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Old October 23, 2013, 04:54 PM   #42
Darker Loaf
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Out of box ready guns:

1) XD V-10 Service Length 9mm
2) RRA Elite Operator 2
3) Kahr K9 Elite
4) Walther PPQ (gave that to my wife though, so doesn't count?)
5) 10/22 but has cycling issues since its .22 LR after all, but nothing grossly bad.
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Old October 23, 2013, 06:04 PM   #43
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Always, in my experience, out of box ready semi-autos-any "Third Generation" Smith & Wesson pistol.
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Old October 24, 2013, 10:13 AM   #44
militant
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Out of box ready guns I own:
Taurus .357 snub
Glock 23 gen 4
glock 22 gen 2
Taurus 24/7 pro 9mm
S&W mp22
I have yet to have a single malfunction in ANY of these guns.
The Glock 22 is 5k rounds plus and counting.
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Old October 24, 2013, 07:00 PM   #45
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A new gun should function correctly and be accurate. Most will do both right out of the box. This doesn't mean we won't do our own mods to a gun to make it better suit our wants or needs. There is nearly always something, I got rid of the extended safety and the allen head screws on a new Kimber 1911, I also added some walnut grips. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with the gun out of the box. I like it better now. Some change out the sights, safety etc. it's kinda like adding rails or running boards to your new Chevy.
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:11 PM   #46
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I think we're talking about functioning, accurate handguns right out of the box, but I do agree that I've personalized most of mine in some way or other: grips mostly, and on one fixed sighted Vaquero, I had to make a windage adjustment to the rear notch. But if I had to pour 200-300 rounds at $.30 to $.60 per round through a pistol to determine if it was "broken in" sufficient to satisfy CC requirements, I'd never trust it to its ultimate purpose.

The question becomes, when is it broken in and when is it something else that's screwed up. Sending a CCW weapon back after 200-300 rounds so they could then tell me, yeah it was the extractor etc., does not fulfill a manufacturer's obligations. If that's their policy, then market the gun as a supposed "target" model and be done with it because it's certainly no combat pistol in spite of the advertising hype and fancy do-dads. Best Regards, Rod
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:55 PM   #47
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I think manufactures don't want to listen to a customer's analysis of a malfunction. I've had to send stuff in, sometimes twice, only to have it come back with the same problem. That's why I trust skilled gunsmiths. They listen and they can interpret what you are saying and act on it. But it irks me that I have to send it into somebody else instead of the original manufacturer taking care of it. This is a problem that extends beyond the gun world, too.

Some companies, FourSevens, Cold Steel, Springfield Armory, are responsive and generous. KWA (airsoft), Arsenal, EAA, blows.
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:56 PM   #48
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5.11 blows too. I tried to post a negative review on their site, twice. Also, perhaps they are colluding with Amazon, too, because I posted pictures of a product of theirs failing, and they were taken down.
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:02 PM   #49
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And it's sad for me. I try to stick to quality companies, but even then, I experience poor customer service and product failures. That's why I can appreciate (though don't own) 1911's, AK's, AR-15's, and Glocks (and many others) because of parts commonality. If something doesn't work, you can order new parts, replace them and fix the problem.

But a part of me really appreciate innovation which means taking risks as a consumer in terms of design. That's why I can appreciate, though don't always agree with, youtube reviewers, because they can buffer some of the risk for you by giving you advice.

That's also why I can really, really appreciate the Firing Line. There are so many good, knowledgeable, reasonable people on here, and it's great to having a sounding board for ideas and problems with people, gun geeks, who are helpful and know what they are talking about!

Huzzah! So say we all!
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:25 PM   #50
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Out of box ready?

Here's my take on it. They are called tolerances. Tight tolerances might have issues at first but after "break in" will be smoother in operation, potentially more accurate, than the gun that worked right out of the box *typically*.

Changes in temperature will cause materials to expand so shooting when its hot out or getting the gun hot, or both, will break it in more quickly.

I really wouldn't mind if my $3,000 1911 required 200-300 rounds through it before the mfr wanted to hear about problems so long as I was notified either on their website or at the time of purchase that the firearm requires a break in. Ive seen as much as 500 round break in and to me that is excessive no matter the gun. If I bought a gun and no mention of break in was seen or heard of prior to a phone call to the mfg complaining about the issues then that would be a problem.

Most high end anything mechanical, cars, boats, CNC machining centers all have break in periods and even at every use you are instructed to run the machine at low speeds and/or loads until the machine comes up to temperature. The internals are so tightly fitted that the thermal expansion of the materials is required to get the intended fit in the design. A tightly fitted firearm needs enough cycles for mating surfaces to "wear in".
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