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Old October 21, 2013, 11:16 AM   #1
militant
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Out of box ready?

Is it acceptable to you as a consumer to buy pistol that is not ready to use out of the box (aside from cleaning)? To me, it is not. If I spend my money on an item, I don't feel like I should have to put money into it to make it satisfactory. What are your thoughts and experiences with this?
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:23 AM   #2
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What do you mean by "not ready"? Do you mean defective, or are you referring to those makers who advocate (or require) a so-called "break-in" period before they consider their pistols to be ready (and reliable, and worthy of warranty service)?
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:27 AM   #3
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I could not agree more!

That's not to say that every gun should have every goodie because not every goodie is wanted, but the gun SHOULD WORK and be accurate enough to fulfill the intended purpose, or it should not be sold.
Therefore such guns should not be bought.

The problem is that many guns don't show their problems until after they are bought.

Same with cars and trucks and appliances. Has anyone seen the lack of logic in the “extended warranties” that are pushed? What they are really saying is WHEN (not if) this appliance breaks down you’ll need it to be fixed, and it’s unlikely to last very long.

Such pproblems should be made public and we should simply refuse to buy them until the companies make a better product.

That's why these forums are good for the public as long as they are not censored.
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:30 AM   #4
Frank Ettin
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It depends.

I agree that a pistol should be reliable, accurate and fully functional out of the box. Pretty much all of my pistols have been thus -- including quite a few 1911s. But nonetheless, any gun should be thoroughly tested to make sure that's the case before it's put to serious use. Mistakes do happen, and that's what warranties are about.

Also, there is the matter of one's personal preferences. Because I have small hands, I fit a short trigger to all my 1911s. Also, over the years, I've developed some personal preferences as to sights, so when I recently bought a Glock 19, I immediately fitted my favored type of sights (wide notch, plain black rear sight and gold or brass bead front sight).
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:31 AM   #5
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Not ready means not ready. Defective, not meeting your standards as a consumer. There are a couple different models of guns I have had problems with and I know not everyone has the same issues or opinions, but I will not make an excuse for a poor choice in a purchase. Example, I got a kel tec pf9. It had several issues. I sent it back. Came back with issues. I won't make an excuse for the gun, it was a bad choice.
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:31 AM   #6
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apples and oranges, guns and shoes

Best pair of shoes I've ever had I wear at work. Paid twice as much for this pair than most pairs I had over many years. This pair hurt my feet like hell the first few days after I bought them. Gave me a huge blister around the ankle - had to glue some cloth and leather onto the back inside of the right shoe to keep it from sliding over my ankle.
After all that hassle, the shoes finally "broke in" and now I love them. Can wear them all day and don't even need to take them off when I get home.

When you buy a brand new automobile, don't you have to go easy on the engine for a while before you start driving really fast?

It is the nature of the beast - some things, by design, need a breakin period and no one who has researched that product should expect it to have top performance right out of the box. Heck even my Savage Model 64 squirrel gun cost me less than 150.00 OOD would hangup on just about any brand of 22 until I shot a few hundred rounds out odf it and now it will shoot all day long with no FTF's.

Looser tolerances in manufacturing process for some guns allow them to work right out of the box, but sometimes that loose fit can have a negative effect on accuracy.
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:34 AM   #7
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My friend and I also got factory Colt 1911s. We both experienced jams. He sent his to a gun smith and spent money on it, I sold mine. Another poor choice. I am not trying to bash any certain gun, but I am going to use this as an example. My friend made an excuse and said, "oh it just needs a little work and it will be perfect". I said, we just paid 900 for a product that doesn't work.
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:39 AM   #8
Fishbed77
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Quote:
When you buy a brand new automobile, don't you have to go easy on the engine for a while before you start driving really fast?

It is the nature of the beast - some things, by design, need a break-in period and no one who has researched that product should expect it to have top performance right out of the box.
This is a reasonable assumption. However, I have owned or had experience with quite a few centerfire firearms that have run perfectly (following the prerequisite cleaning and lubing) right out of the box, including a Colt Government XSE, Walther P99AS, Kahr CM9 (this despite all the talk of the Kahr break-in period), and several semi-auto long arms, such at my Spikes M4LE, Saiga AK, and Remington 11-87 Premiere.

So it's quite possible to have a semi-auto run reliably out of the box, making it more difficult to accept excuses for those that don't.


.

Last edited by Fishbed77; October 21, 2013 at 01:26 PM.
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by militant
My friend and I also got factory Colt 1911s. We both experienced jams.
That's what warranties are for. Even Cadillac, Lincoln, and Rolls-Royce occasionally sell a car that has problems. So do the most expensive gun makers ... and they all have warranties to cover such issues. (Admittedly, some stand behind their printed warranty better than others, but Colt happens to be one of the very best.)

I've bought a couple of Colt 1911s new and they functioned flawlessly. I know any number of people whose experience with Colt has been the same. It's unfortunate that you happened to get one with a problem, but IMHO it's unfair to bash the manufacturer (or the entire industry) for an isolated problem when you didn't even give the manufacturer an opportunity to correct it.
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:49 AM   #10
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I've bought a couple of Colt 1911s new and they functioned flawlessly. I know any number of people whose experience with Colt has been the same.
All my experiences with recent-production Colts (including my 2012-production XSE) have been VERY positive with regards to reliability.

Frankly, due to a major investment in hi-tech CNC milling equipment and a higher degree of hand-fitting than most mass-produced 1911s receive, combined with fewer MIM parts than most manufacturers use, Colt is making some of the best pistols in their entire history these days.
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Old October 21, 2013, 11:59 AM   #11
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No, I wouldnt spend any money to fix a new gun.
I'll always give it 50-200 rounds to smooth out, beyond that I'll call it quits and send it in just once.
I'm always open to them sending me parts (new extractor for example) and will give it another go that way to.
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Old October 21, 2013, 12:16 PM   #12
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For the most part, yes, I expect guns to perform right out of the box ...including well made 1911's....

However, I will follow the mfg's break in recommendations....

but I know there are a lot of guns out there...that have all kinds of issues / some have good warranties ...some seem to be nightmares.../ do your homework on the gun before you buy...
------------
I've had no issues with my Wilson Combat 1911's ....but nightmares of problems with Les Baer and Kimber 1911's.../ so Wilson Combat is where I spend my money ....and both of my Wilson's ran 100% right out of the box.

I've had no issues with Sig Sauer 226's and 239's.../ or Sig X-Five...all ran 100% right out of the box...
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Old October 21, 2013, 12:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
No, I wouldnt spend any money to fix a new gun.
I'll always give it 50-200 rounds to smooth out, beyond that I'll call it quits and send it in just once.
I'm always open to them sending me parts (new extractor for example) and will give it another go that way to.
Very reasonable,the overall quality of the new firearms market would experience a noticeable improvement should this be the general attitude.My policy as well.
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:04 PM   #14
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If I had to pick one brand of pistol to work right out of the box it would be H&K. I've owned 2 1911's and both needed attention because of factory mistakes. A pre-2008 Glock would be another reliable choice.
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:11 PM   #15
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It has been many decades since auto makers recommended "break in" periods, so I am not sure that is a valid argument.

I do expect a break in period on a tightly fitted target pistol, made to have minimum tolerances so as to shoot as accurately as possible.

But for a service/defense handgun, I expect reliability out of the box. Period.

For a carry gun, I do recommend firing at least 200 rounds of the carry ammo in a revolver, and the same from each carry magazine in an auto pistol. But that is not for breaking in the pistol; it is to be sure the parts (gun, magazine, ammo) are compatible with one another. The factory mag and standard FMJ ammo should work without any break in.

Jim
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:21 PM   #16
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I agree for *most* guns. As has been mentioned, some tighter fitting guns do sometimes need break-in periods - not always, but potentially.

Looser tolerance duty guns are usually, and should be, reliable out of box... i.e. - Glock, XD, M&P, HK, etc. You don't - or shouldn't have to - put anything into them as they come from the factory. Of course, there are nice upgrades that we like to do, such as trigger jobs, new sights, etc. but those things are 'extras' not required for functioning gun.

Some tighter guns like higher-end 1911s do often need break-in periods. The tighter tolerances means that all of the moving parts need time to lap together and become smooth at a fine level. My Springfield TRP was *mostly* reliable when I first got it, but it did have a couple of bobbles in the first 300-400 rounds or so. I can't say for sure what the causes were, but the gun has been great ever since. A break in period on that gun didn't bother me and I half expected it.
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:24 PM   #17
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Once a firearm leaves the factory the company has no control over a few things ... the shooter (experience & skill); the ammunition being used; the owner/user maintenance practices; and the environmental conditions in which the firearm is actually used.

People can have surprisingly unrealistic "expectations". (Anyone's who ever worked in any sort of customer service can attest to this. )

They can also lack familiarity & experience with any particular type of handgun, as well as have an insufficient skillset and/or use an improper shooting technique to help the gun run as designed and intended.

They may fail to use ammunition of good enough quality (factory, proper caliber, etc).

And yes, occasionally a particular gun might have an issue which wasn't recognized during production, but which needs to be addressed in order for the gun to offer normal operation & functioning.

As a LE armorer for various makes/models of firearms I've had my fair share of opportunity over the years to see brand new guns which required repair, parts replacement or some type of corrective action before they would function as intended.

I've seen FAR MORE instances, however, of owners/users create what they felt were "gun problems" by improper handling & manipulation, or the use of questionable ammunition, fiddling with the gun to "improve it", poor maintenance/cleaning/lubrication practices, etc. I can't begin to remember the number of times someone has brought me a gun which they claimed was "broken", or "had a problem", and it actually turned out to be a shooter-related problem that needed to be addressed and corrected.

Every once in a great while an actual ammunition problem may occur, even with modern ammunition made by some of the established big American companies. Not surprising to consider that any of the big companies which can produce 1 million rounds every 24 hours might have some problem rounds slip by now and again.

Just my thoughts.
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:29 PM   #18
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It has been many decades since auto makers recommended "break in" periods, so I am not sure that is a valid argument.
Both my 2001 model year car and my wife's 2006 model year car had break-in period recommendations listed in the owner's manuals.
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:35 PM   #19
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It has been many decades since auto makers recommended "break in" periods, so I am not sure that is a valid argument.
I can attest that the Corvette manual recommends a break-in period.

According to the 2012 owner's manual:

- Don't do any hard braking for the first 200 miles.
- Don't drive at a constant speed or use the cruise control for the first 500 miles.
- Don't do any WOT starts for the first 500 miles.
- Don't let the RPMs get over 4K for the first 500 miles.
- Check the oil level after every gas fill-up for the first 1500 miles.
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:40 PM   #20
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Is it acceptable to you as a consumer to buy pistol that is not ready to use out of the box (aside from cleaning)
In the case of an AMT 45 Backup - yes. I paid just under $400 for this gun. There is nothing else out there that is the same, but better. It is all stainless steel, so polishing is not overly difficult or out of my league. When all's said and done, for about $410 + elbow grease (and real grease/lube) I have a reliable pocket .45acp.


Another example: I purchased a Chinese B21/22 springer air rifle. NO WAY would you want to take one shot out of this thing before completely disassembling it, cleaning out the metal shavings and re-lubricating it. I knew this before buying the gun. And, for $120, and doing what I read on a blog, I had a springer air rifle that IMHO is better than the RWS it copied. The reason was, this particular gun came with a 2-stage, forged/milled all steel fire control mechanism. Can't get that on an RWS from the factory at any price.

There may be some AK builds that fall into the category of "for $500, leave the rest to me" as well.

For $1,000+ I expect the gun to run like a champ without me having to so much as spit on it.

Last edited by Skans; October 21, 2013 at 01:58 PM.
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Old October 21, 2013, 02:24 PM   #21
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One gun I got recently has surprised me. I got a S&W MP22 pistol and expected some dud ammo or some sort of malfunction due to it being a rim fire. I also have not cleaned it sense I first purchased it. I have 500 rounds threw it and no failures at all with bulk ammo. Also, I have a gen 4 glock 23 with 300 round thre it with no cleaning ever from the factory. I plan on shooting it till it has a malfunction just to see what it does out of curiosity. I had a ruger mk3 I put 3500 round threw before it wouldn't fire anymore without cleaning. I cleaned it and it still keeps shooting great. Those are my personal work horses.
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Old October 21, 2013, 06:37 PM   #22
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When you buy a brand new automobile, don't you have to go easy on the engine for a while before you start driving really fast?
Breaking-in an automobile (if, in fact, needed) has nothing to do with whether it runs or not but, rather, (perhaps) how long it runs in terms of optimum longevity. If you bought a new Buick and it wouldn't run, or ran poorly until it was properly "broken-in"; many would dub the car a "lemon".
I think too many consumers have given some gunmakers a pass when it comes to their products not working correctly until 500 or so rounds have been fired through them. Most manufacturers don't require break-ins for their firearms and, imo, that policy should be true for all new guns.
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Old October 21, 2013, 08:48 PM   #23
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As far as "out of the box ready", I expect nothing of my handgun purchase other than it run 100%.

Anything else that I want, sights, lighter trigger, different grips, upgraded parts, etc., I do myself.
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Old October 21, 2013, 08:59 PM   #24
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You buy it,you bring it home and shoot it. It should function always. I have only one pistol I have ever bought . But 4 years over 5000 rounds and still going strong. Never had to change springs or any thing,just keeps going. That is what you should expect from a new purchase.
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Old October 21, 2013, 09:08 PM   #25
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If there was something mechanically wrong with the gun, I wouldn't be happy about it, but what can you do other than moan and cry about it to customer service, then send it back for warranty work?

One thing I do believe manufacturers should do is run at least 50 rounds of ammo through a gun at it's zero range to insure complete function and accuracy. I think all they do at present is fire one round to insure the gun actually fires, and that's probably into a water tank. I wouldn't mind paying $20 to $30 more for the additional testing, if it means the gun is guaranteed tip top when I get it.

There must be a very large volume of guns being bought to justify mass production at a lesser standard, otherwise the guns would be of higher quality and price.
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