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Old October 21, 2013, 02:59 PM   #26
Erikbal
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Re: First conceal carry pistol. Need some info

I own a Bodyguard .380 (it was my first pistol) and it's still my EDC weapon. It's been 100% reliable without any malfunction of any kind. Yeah the trigger is kind of long and hard, but it's not a range gun. It's made for deep concealment and a last resort type situation. I trust mine with my life.

I don't think you could really go wrong with any on your list.
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Old October 21, 2013, 03:04 PM   #27
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If I had -never- carried concealed before, I would keep this in mind:

Larger guns are more difficult to carry. Less comfortable to be worn, a bit harder to conceal. But -FAR- better for defense in every measurable way if & when it needs to be put in to service. We could write a small volume about why this is true.

If you START your adventures in concealed carry with something SMALL, everything you try in the future that is larger (better for defense, all else being equal) will be more difficult to carry.

I would start with something larger, and see how well you can pull it off, with regards to all day comfort and ability to conceal and dress around it.

Others disagree. Of course, -MANY- arm themselves with pocket guns and mouseguns and .32's and .22's and that's miles from my choice, also. On one hand, I am thrilled that they are carrying something, but I believe it simply isn't the best choice. But I only make decisions... for ME!
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Old October 21, 2013, 03:30 PM   #28
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Sevens is accurate in that regard.
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Old October 21, 2013, 03:30 PM   #29
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You know Sevens hit on a good point that hasnt really been touched on in this thread yet. A larger gun will be easier to shoot more effectively should you have to use it. Larger guns tend to have sights that are actually typically pretty good and the longer sight radius should help with accuracy as well.

That is another reason I choose to carry the 9c over the shield 9. While the Shield is surprisingly easy to shoot for its size, you still cant defeat the basic concepts of sight radius. Hits on target are great and misses are liabilities. In this lawsuit laden world we live in this is something you should take into account if you have the mind to carry in the first place. You are already preparing for an extremely unlikely situation, might as well be well prepared to respond effectively if it arises.

Another tidbit, a larger gun with a longer barrel will gain you velocity on the rounds fired making them more lethal though shot placement is really what is key, see above paragraphs.


Something to demonstrate to yourself what I am talking about and gauge your own effectiveness is rent that bodyguard .380 or a shield 9 again and ask the range if they have a shot timer, ask how to use it(simple as can be) and borrow it if possible or have them use it with you. There is also an Iphone app put out by surefire called shot timer but its not real great, just OK, and if the range is crowded forget it. Absent a timer, just note your hits out of 5.

Start from the low ready position as you wont have a holster for the gun and most ranges don't allow drawing to fire on the line anyway for civilians. Shooting as fast as you can effectively, that cant be stressed enough, put 5 rounds on a regular sized paper plate at 7 yards. If you cant do it, slow down until you can, and note your time(or hit percentage). You should be pushing yourself to shoot as fast as you can and consistently be hitting the plate. Now pick up that compact and do the same thing. The difference will be self-revealing.
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Old October 21, 2013, 05:42 PM   #30
blackwaterstout
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Re: First conceal carry pistol. Need some info

I can definitely see everyone's point in regards to the larger guns being more accurate and packing more punch. Truth be told it wouldn't hurt me at all to try carrying my 75bd police. Maybe Ill try that and see how it goes. I have to tell you though that I've been a minimalist for 41 years. I hate carrying my larger cell phone. I hate when my key ring gets too many keys and clogs up my pants pocket. I hate when my wallet starts getting "Castansa like". So my fear is that ill hate having that full size duty gun down my pants. Lol. It won't hurt to try.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, a thin single stack 9mm with 8 rounds is better in your pocket than a thick double stack duty gun sitting in your glove box because its uncomfortable to carry.

Right now I'm leaning toward the PPS as long as it feels good in hand. I guess if it doesn't work out I van always sell it and buy something else.
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Old October 21, 2013, 09:09 PM   #31
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You are already comfortable and efficient with the 75. I would take honor in carrying a gun that I know I can hit with over the learning curve involved with any new gun any day of the week.

With the smaller guns, one often hears the excuse "it's not a range gun." Keep in mind that when the adrenaline dumps you will fall back on training.
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Old October 22, 2013, 12:01 AM   #32
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I personally CC my CZ 75BD (same gun as yours for the most part). I love the decocker only, and personally prefer SA/DA to any other action pistol.

When I need a smaller CC autoloader, I reach for my Makarov. In 9x18, it's a stout enough round, that isn't too pricey to practice with. The gun is fairly common, and feels right in my hand (not as nice as the CZ-75, but let's not get distracted). In addition, when i bought mine, it was inoperable in double action. I did the repair myself (with no gunsmithing experience and only a set of screwdrivers for tools), and paid a total of $30-$40 for the part plus shipping. Magazines are inexpensive at around $20 each. I put the safety on fire when I holster my weapon, and it sits ready with the hammer down if i need it.

Just my 2 cents
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Old October 22, 2013, 05:43 AM   #33
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Here's the part of your question that bothers me the most:

Quote:
Honestly I'm leaning toward another 9mm but maybe even a .380. I'm not worried about big bore guns. I just want something comfortable, reliable, and reasonably priced. I've held all 4 guns I'll list but have never fired any of them. All of these felt good in my hand.
The very last thing you want to have sticking out in front of you, or to be holding onto when, 'things get sticky' and you have to fight for your life is, 'something comfortable'.

I have over 50 years of experience with firearm self-defense; and I assure you it is a truism that: AN EDC PISTOL SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BECOME A, 'SELF-DEFENSE PACIFIER'. Just because you've got some cute 'n comfortable little gun in your pocket does NOT mean that you are safe. True, you might feel safe; but, in reality, 'safe' is the last thing that you'll actually be!

There's the easy way to learn; and there's the hard way to learn. I'm positive that it's not going to take you more than your very first armed confrontation for you to discover that: The bigger the gun, the more powerful the cartridge, and the more bullets you have to defend yourself with, then, the more likely you're going to be to walk away from the encounter.

When you're suddenly confronted with the serious personal dilemma of being forced to fight for your life you're going to want as much gun in your hand as you can possibly wield, effectively! One of the important things this means is that YOU'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE(S) BETWEEN A PRIMARY CARRY GUN, AND A, 'BUG'. Very few experienced gunmen will, of their own volition, go into personal combat while wielding a, 'bug'; and any that do will be operating, expediently, under extreme duress!

This said: ALL, but (perhaps) one, of the pistols you're considering are, in fact, 'cute little bugs'. I've no doubt they're, all, very comfortable to carry, and might even be comfy to shoot, as well; but genuine self-defense, 'fighting weapons' they ain't! No one pistol can be all things to all people. My suggestion? Let your wife select her own handgun. If your wife is anything like my wife, then, she won't carry her pistol all of the time, anyway. Instead what you're going to hear is, 'What do I need to carry my gun for?' 'I've got you!'

True, a lot of people are going to disagree with the views I've just expressed; but, then again, a lot of people have never had to suddenly go face-to-face with three sadistic and determined drug dealers. I don't carry or use compact (or subcompact) little, 'pacifier pistols' as a primary handgun. Use a quality gun belt and holster, and you'll be fine. Use a decent sized 9mm, or better, pistol and you'll, also, stand a much better chance of walking away from your next armed encounter, too!




NOTES: By the way, 'feels good in your hand' mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It's just more, 'personal security pablum' for ingenuous internet pistoleros to comfort themselves with. To wit: I was trained to handle firearms and shoot by three United States Marine Corps officers (my uncles).

My real personal opinion? Screw, 'feels good in the hand'. My uncles trained me to pick up any gun, anytime, and anywhere, and then to use it effectively. The concept of a weapon, 'feeling good' in the hand was as completely antithetical to each of my experienced (Korean War veteran) uncles as it is to me, today.

There's real world, armed self-defense; and there's real-time, internet self-defense. The one is not equal to the other. What sounds good on the Internet (or currently appeals to the popular mind) often doesn't work well on, 'the mean streets'. Do whatever you will; but, my suggestion would be to stay away from: cute, little, 'feel good', subcompact pistols, and 380 ACP caliber handguns.
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Old October 22, 2013, 07:16 AM   #34
loose_holster_dan
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no one is arguing that a bigger gun will be easier to shoot accurately. but what's better - no gun or a small gun? i find myself being annoyed when i carry my comfortable gun. if i only had a medium sized gun, i would carry almost never. i'm not assaulting a crack house. i'm stopping a mugger or, at worst, a gas station hold up.
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Old October 22, 2013, 09:34 AM   #35
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It seems the majority of posters are leaning towards the "bigger is better" line of thinking, and that may be true if you are in law enforcement, but I don't think it good advice for the average citizen.

I started out carrying as big as possible, and found that I just wasn't carrying that often. It is easier to carry a full sized pistol in the winter months, but during the summer, I'm mostly wearing shorts & t-shirts, and that's where a pocket pistol, like the 5 shot revolvers and compact semi-autos shine. I carried an all steel S&W Mod 60 for years, but recently switched to a Bersa Thunder 380 CC, because it's lighter, flatter, and has the "old school" DA/SA trigger. I don't like the long, long DAO trigger pulls of most of the popular offerings.

If I'm expecting trouble, I'll grab a shotgun or semi-auto rifle. If I have to go into a bad neighborhood (which is rare now), I'll grab one of my duty sized pistols.
But if I'm just shopping or dining with my wife, I carry a medium sized pocket pistol, that I shoot well.

Last edited by Rifleman1952; October 22, 2013 at 09:51 AM.
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Old October 22, 2013, 09:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
The very last thing you want to have sticking out in front of you, or to be holding onto when, 'things get sticky' and you have to fight for your life is, 'something comfortable'.
The Good Colonel did say, "Your gun is supposed to be "comforting" not "comfortable".

He was a proponent of the 75B carried C&L, IIRC.
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Old October 22, 2013, 02:41 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwaterstout
. . . . Truth be told it wouldn't hurt me at all to try carrying my 75bd police. . . .
Personally, I think this is the best idea so far. We've got several members who successfully CC pistols comparable in size to this model on a regular basis. To emphasize something from the opening post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwaterstout
. . . .I only own one handgun which is a CZ-75BD Police 9mm. The gun is perfect for me and I couldn't be happier with it. It's built well, feels great in my hand, and has never misfired. I trust it to protect my family and it's the gun I keep in my nightstand with Hornady Home Defense rounds. . . .
I've never shot any of the pistols under consideration, but if it ain't broke, why fix it? I suggest getting a good belt and holster and try that out first. If you need suggestions on wardrobe to make CC easier, we'll still be here. If you just can't CC the CZ, you can still use the belt for the new CC pistol, and you're really only out the cost of the holster, . . . which you could likely sell if you wanted.
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Old October 22, 2013, 02:56 PM   #38
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All I know is I hope no one who carries a single stack .380 ever faces two attackers for there is a good chance you will:

1. Shoot to slide lock
2. Enjoy reloading with the useless under high stress small lever on the bottom that is an abomination of a mag release
3. Miss your target(s) more than once

Of what you've listed the only one I'd give a chance is the Shield 9. My personal recommendation is the M&P 9c, or a Glock G19, or Springfield XD Compact. Outside of those I have experience but not enough to feel comfortable making a recommendation.

All those guns have:

Good Sights
"Enough" capacity
"Enough" Concealability
Combat effective triggers
Decent Sight radius given our goals


I just cant for the life of me(and it may come to that one day) justify a really small single stack pistol

Compact:
+Capacity
+Sights
+Sight Radius
+Lethality
+Triggers
+Mag releases
+Overall useability of controls
+Grip

Sub-Compact or other very small single stack guns:
+Concealability


The negatives of the very small guns far outweigh the positives. I am an engineer and looking at things you can actually quantify the compact wins out over the sub and smaller guns EVERY SINGLE TIME. I just cant bring myself to make all those sacrifices for concealability.
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Old October 23, 2013, 12:54 AM   #39
ParabellumJ
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First conceal carry pistol. Need some info

Oh jeez. Just go out and get a Glock 19 and be done with it.
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Old October 23, 2013, 10:55 AM   #40
Spats McGee
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Let's move back towards the original questions, shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwaterstout
Springfield XD-S in 9mm - . . . .
S&W M&P9c in 9mm - . . . .
S&W Bodyguard 380 - . . . .
Walther PPK .380 - . . . .

So if any of you have experience with some or all of these handguns I'd like your comments on the pros and cons of each gun and ultimately what you'd recommend. Thanks.
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Old October 23, 2013, 12:17 PM   #41
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First conceal carry pistol. Need some info

From that list, the M&P 9c easily stands out to me. My attitude toward carry weapons is that good ones will fight you as little as possible. Of the options presented, the M&P (without optional thumb safety) is one of the two easiest to deploy to first shot with speed, it has the largest capacity, it can accept 17rd spare mags, it has the most weight and surface to help with quick and accurate follow up shots, etc. It is an outstanding carry option, and shoots very much like a service pistol.

As always, I ask "If you ever have to shoot to live, what do you want to be holding?"
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Old October 23, 2013, 12:51 PM   #42
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I like the Walter PPK and XDS in 9mm from your list. If you are open to new options (you seem like you are), Kahrs are really good. I have over 1000 rounds through my Kahr K9 Elite with no stoppages or failures of any kind.

Kahrs are thin, which is great for concealment. They are available all the important flavors: .380 (thinnest, lightest), 9mm (pretty thin, pretty light), .40 (not as thin or light), and if you find your manhood wanting and must have it .45 ACP.

Oh, and get a good belt and holster no matter what caliber or gun you get.



Just kidding on the .45 ACP bash! I just saw somebody being all: "You weakinglings! .380's can't kill!" Too funny! Did you know .22 LR's just bounce off human skin?!? Amazing!
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Old October 23, 2013, 01:19 PM   #43
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Is the Walther PPK obsolete?

Last edited by PP99; October 23, 2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old October 23, 2013, 03:16 PM   #44
Rob007
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First conceal carry pistol. Need some info

Double stack for capacity and longer for accuracy - glock 26 10+1, M&P's 9c 12+1, glock 19 15+1. Have em all and they all work great it you can handle the weight and thickness.

If you gotta go single stack the Shield is a good choice very good to shoot. For max concealment in 9 mm, look at a Kahr cm9. Small as a 380 and smooth DA like trigger - my favorite of all
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Old October 23, 2013, 05:45 PM   #45
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Re: First conceal carry pistol. Need some info

Here is where I am currently in my decision. I am confident that I want a 9mm single stack striker fired polymer pistol. I stopped at another local gun shop tonight to see what they had. The only gun they had that fit my requirements was the M&P Shield which they had priced at $445. I got to handle it next to the M&P9c and I honestly think ill appreciate the thinness of the shield even though it sacrifices capacity. His prices to order the Walther PPS was $535 and to order the XDs was $585. I thought the price of the PPS was a little better than I expected but I'm no expert. My only hesitation was that I've never held the gun in hand so I'm not sure how it feels.

So ill be traveling for the rest of the week and will try to find some new gun shops in hopes I can see the Walther in person.
I may just go with the Shield since its cheapest but for another $90 the PPS is probably worth it.
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Old October 23, 2013, 09:14 PM   #46
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Carry what you know. A good holster makes the difference, like this one,

http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Prod...er_straps.html

...and on a good belt like this one,

http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Prod...dy_belts_.html

Or stay with the same feel and go with one of the worlds best CCW pistols, the CZ75 PCR.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/...d-pcr-compact/

The alloy frame is lighter than the steel frame, and gives you the same great ergonomics. I have had great luck with CZ pistols for carry.
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Old October 24, 2013, 07:16 AM   #47
loose_holster_dan
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Quote:
My only hesitation was that I've never held the gun in hand so I'm not sure how it feels.
i'm not exaggerating when i say that if you've held the xds, you've held the pps. the ONLY difference you will notice is the trigger guard mag release.
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:59 AM   #48
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The 9c is about as good of a CCW as you can get. It's better designed than the Glock 19 (which is excellent too). If you put it in a nice hybrid (Crossbreed type) holster, it is very concealable. It is of course limited in how you can carry it. It is not a pocket gun.
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Old October 24, 2013, 07:51 PM   #49
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Quote:
Today I shot a 3rd gen Glock 19 and an M&P9. I wish I could have shot the M&P9c but it wasn't available. The Glock felt decent in hand. Didn't think it felt great firing though. I did like the quick tear down. I think the M&P9 felt great in hand. I think the 9C might be better for me than the shield but I won't know until I can see the shield in person.
Based upon this response and others from the OP, the best course of action is to buy nothing at this time.* The reality is that the OP has NO IDEA what he NEEDS in a defensive handgun. He knows what he wants, but that may not match up with what he needs. The OP's current needs are likely to learn to shoot first and carry second. A very small handgun is difficult to learn on. The good news is any gun that is Glock 26 height and length (and up to approximately Glock 19 height and length) is easy to carry and suitable for learning.

I recommend that his immediate action be to rent any service sized handgun chambered in 9x19mm or 45 ACP and pay for an hour of instruction at the same time. This will start the OP's handgun shooting "career" on the right foot. The OP should repeat this weekly while waiting for the classes. As soon as possible after that first range session, the OP should attend NRA Basic Pistol, followed closely by any "Level 1" two to five day defensive handgun course. The OP will have a very good idea regarding what he needs and wants at the end of that defensive handgun course. This program will save him the most money in the long run while maximizing his skill.







* Unless this is an emergency and the OP needs a handgun for self-protection. In such a case, a service sized handgun should be purchased along with range instruction. He should attend several 1 hour range sessions with a good instructor within a week to become acquainted with the handgun, learn to handle it safely, and shoot it with at least a minimum level of proficiency.

Last edited by tomrkba; October 24, 2013 at 07:59 PM.
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:06 PM   #50
blackwaterstout
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Re: First conceal carry pistol. Need some info

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
Based upon this response and others from the OP, the best course of action is to buy nothing at this time.* The reality is that the OP has NO IDEA what he NEEDS in a defensive handgun. He knows what he wants, but that may not match up with what he needs. The OP's current needs are likely to learn to shoot first and carry second. A very small handgun is difficult to learn on. The good news is any gun that is Glock 26 height and length (and up to approximately Glock 19 height and length) is easy to carry and suitable for learning.

I recommend that his immediate action be to rent any service sized handgun chambered in 9x19mm or 45 ACP and pay for an hour of instruction at the same time. This will start the OP's handgun shooting "career" on the right foot. The OP should repeat this weekly while waiting for the classes. As soon as possible after that first range session, the OP should attend NRA Basic Pistol, followed closely by any "Level 1" two to five day defensive handgun course. The OP will have a very good idea regarding what he needs and wants at the end of that defensive handgun course. This program will save him the most money in the long run while maximizing his skill.







* Unless this is an emergency and the OP needs a handgun for self-protection. In such a case, a service sized handgun should be purchased along with range instruction. He should attend several 1 hour range sessions with a good instructor within a week to become acquainted with the handgun, learn to handle it safely, and shoot it with at least a minimum level of proficiency.
Lol. Did you even read the original posting? I clearly stated I already own a CZ-75BD (AKA service size pistol) and that I already know how to shoot and I've taken basic handgun classes and have submitted paperwork for my CCW permit.
I just want a smaller gun that's easy and comfortable to conceal. I asked for suggestions. I got several good ones and appreciate that.

Goodness.........
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