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Old October 18, 2013, 11:58 AM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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3D printer guns in Europe

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/bu...html?ref=world

This is an interesting article - to summarize:

The Europeans are worried that 3D print guns can be made.

There are reported demonstrations that they would fire enough shots before breaking to be used in some onetime evil act.

They have been smuggled past metal detectors - see Israeli example.

Software solutions for printers might block such usage (although I would think that is an easy hack).

-- My thought - isn't getting the ammo hard in Europe. If you could get the ammo illegally - probably be able to get a gun.
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Old October 18, 2013, 01:04 PM   #2
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Standard anti-gun hysteria... remember when DieHard2 came out the anti's were running around in froth-mouthed hysteria about "porcelin" Glocks being the modern weapon of choice for aircraft hijackers.

I'm not a criminal mastermind, but when I see 2 kids from Boston who already have guns manage to blow up half a block using pressure cooker bombs, my concerns about somebody going through the time and effort to make a 3D gun that might fire a few rounds before blowing their hand off and using it in a crime doesn't materialize... it's such a miniscule concern that any time and effort put into preventing such an incident takes resources away from detecting and preventing far more likely methods of "one time evil acts".

We are talking about Eurpoe here... remember a few months back when some couple found a few hundred rounds of leftover WWI ammo in their backyard pond... the husband had a bunch of quotes about how scared they were, as in genuinely fearful that their of their lives were in danger over the stuff.
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Old October 18, 2013, 02:03 PM   #3
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Quote:
We are talking about Eurpoe here... remember a few months back when some couple found a few hundred rounds of leftover WWI ammo in their backyard pond... the husband had a bunch of quotes about how scared they were, as in genuinely fearful that their of their lives were in danger over the stuff.
They were genuinely in danger [of being sent to prison].
In several European countries, mere possession is a serious crime.
Simply touching munitions dug up in your garden can result in 10+ year prison sentences, as shown by the poor elderly lady sentenced to 10 years for moving 3 WWI or WWII cartridges from her garden to her doorstep, a couple years ago. (They "gave her a break", by not making it 10 years per cartridge, IIRC.)
She still called the Bobbies. She still knew not to mess with them. She only moved them, to make sure no children played with the cartridges. ...and they still sent her to prison.

A lot of the people are not afraid of the munitions. They're afraid the terrible ways in which the local PD can respond.
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Old October 18, 2013, 05:12 PM   #4
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In America we just suspend kids from school for speaking the word "gun" or making their hand in the shape of a gun.
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Old October 18, 2013, 06:07 PM   #5
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the numbers of shootings here in Sweden tells the fact that illegal guns and ammo aren't hard to come by, and yet the are tightening up already harsh gun laws
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Old October 18, 2013, 06:45 PM   #6
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Quote:
Software solutions for printers might block such usage (although I would think that is an easy hack).
Doubt it would be an easy hack to get rid of such blocks. Standard printers and scanners of recent manufacture have programming to allow them to recognize when someone is trying to scan or print currency and stop the operation. Or at the least put little micr stamps on the printout to let the feds track where it came from once they get their hands on the fake. You would think there would be a good demand for a printer that could print money for you. But so far, noone's hacked any. Granted, it's probably because it's easier to just get an older printer that doesn't have those protections.

Then again i doubt they could block a 3D printer from printing a gun. Blocking a printer from printing money is easy. All money looks the same, so you just need it to recognize one particular image and refuse to work with it.
There are however MANY different gun designs with MANY different parts in them, most of which would look exactly the same as any other mechanical part to a printer. It would be a huge undertaking to program them to recognize every part that could be used in a gun.

It would be like trying to regulate all "gun parts" sold in the country. Impossible since most gun parts can simply be sold as any number of things without anyone realizing.
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Old October 18, 2013, 09:13 PM   #7
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You can restrict currency printing because it is a fixed and very specific design that is unique and can't really be changed.
A 3-D gun is a combination of generic 3-D shapes that are not unique and it is not a specific and limiting design. It can also be changed.
Trying to ban the recent design would be about as successful as the 1986 ban that resulted in the token connection of the pistol grip to the stock of a rifle.
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Old October 18, 2013, 10:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
In several European countries, mere possession is a serious crime.
Simply touching munitions dug up in your garden can result in 10+ year prison sentences, as shown by the poor elderly lady sentenced to 10 years for moving 3 WWI or WWII cartridges from her garden to her doorstep, a couple years ago.
However, as I've pointed out in past threads, these draconian laws sometimes have an ironic unintended consequence- some people are so afraid of the legal consequences that they squirrel potentially dangerous munitions away in the proverbial deep, dark hole rather than surrendering them to the authorities.

Think about it. Let's say possession of pistol ammo is forbidden. You can be sentenced to prison for 10 years for possessing 50 rounds. Your father passes away, and you find a 1,000rd case in his garden shed. You had no idea it existed. What do you do?

I would also fetch my shovel.
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Old October 19, 2013, 04:36 AM   #9
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Some hilarious ideas in this thread about the way Europeans react to dug up ammo. Even today there are parts in this country where farmers can’t plow a field without finding some unexploded artillery rounds (some containing mustard gas). They don’t panic, but just pick them up, pile them by the side of the road and when they’re finished plowing they might call the police and let them know about that stack of high explosives. They ain’t even going to bother with picking up some cartridges.

I once bought a batch of surplus ‘7,62 nato’ that turned out to be badly corroded. Rather than going true the effort of digging a hole or spending money to have it disposed, I had my brother (doesn’t have a gun license) call the cops and tell them he found it in his basement. They came to pick it up … for free
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Old October 19, 2013, 06:07 AM   #10
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While 3d printers are getting more attention, what will likely have more of an impact on 'home built' firearms is the proliferation of inexpensive CNC milling machines, because in the long run they accomplish the same thing as a printer, but with much more practical results.

Consider-with a fairly small CNC mill, a downloaded set of instructions and a small block of aluminum, one can make the frame of a REAL 1911; a gun that will last a lifetime, and be effective as any store bought weapon. That will change the game far more than the small, extremely limited weapons that could be made of the additive plastics available for printing today.


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Old October 19, 2013, 06:09 AM   #11
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3D printer guns in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husqvarna View Post
the numbers of shootings here in Sweden tells the fact that illegal guns and ammo aren't hard to come by, and yet the are tightening up already harsh gun laws
Tell us more. Tightening how? Finland usually follows whenever you swedes come up with something stupid (like opening borders...)
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Old October 19, 2013, 06:43 AM   #12
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An easy fix for this would be a background check and registration of all 3 D printers and allow the government to control and monitor one’s use.
That would protect us.
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Old October 19, 2013, 08:39 AM   #13
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Here's the article on that British couple... don't see any fear about going to jail, just sheer terror about finding ammo in their pond:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ding-pond.html

Mr Tipping said: 'It’s really unnerved us. I’m terrified that next time I’m mowing the lawn I’ll run over a bullet that hasn’t been found yet. One of us could be seriously hurt.

'We have friends with young children who could have put one of the bullets in their mouth, or one of our cats could have got hold of one - it doesn’t bear thinking about.

'We were planning to be in this house for years - now we want to move out as soon as we can.

Ms Mercer added: 'I rang my dad because he used to be in the Navy, and he told us not to touch them because they could be dangerous. He said they could have eroded over time and we should call the police straight away. It was at that point that we started to panic.'

'It’s just mind-blowing,' Mr Tipping said. 'The police told me that they found more rounds of ammunition in our back garden than at the local arms store.'

'It’s sad because we love this house and have spent time and effort making it a home. And somebody somewhere has ruined that. I don’t want to stay in a house where that kind of thing has been found in the garden. I’m gutted.'
Mr Tipping added: 'Of course for our family and friends this is a great story, but for us, it’s ruined our home.'
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Old October 19, 2013, 10:05 AM   #14
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That article is hilarious. Is all of England really like that? What happened?

A caption under one of the photos:
Quote:
Despite the thousands of bullets that were found, the police did not feel the need to evacuate the couple.
I'm amazed they didn't feel the need to evacuate the whole town, call in an air-strike and wipe everybody's memory.
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Old October 20, 2013, 05:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Think about it. Let's say possession of pistol ammo is forbidden. You can be sentenced to prison for 10 years for possessing 50 rounds. Your father passes away, and you find a 1,000rd case in his garden shed. You had no idea it existed. What do you do?

I would also fetch my shovel.
Acctually atleast here in Sweden when a gunowner dies the guns/ammo was his property so it goes into the estate and can be sold or you can apply for a license (if you meet the prerequisites) they even give you time to take the hunters license to do it.

Licenses weren't required in the past in the same way, and even so very old licenses aren't even in the system so guns do pop up when oldtimers pass away

And for the finnish guy who asked

they are kinda targeting semi-automatic rifles with removable magazines, very hard requirements to get an ar15 for example, and for hunting noting that has got a military background

Much of it was already happening before and then Breivik happened
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Old October 20, 2013, 09:31 AM   #16
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That article is hilarious. Is all of England really like that?
The Daily Mail is a tabloid newspaper that caters to the sensationalist side of UK popular taste.

If the guy in the article had simply said "yeah found some rounds.... put them in a bag and took them to the local cop-shop... nuisance, really: took me two hours and now I haven't the time to put up those shelves..." it would never have seen print.

So in answer to your question, no... it isn't.

Quote:
don't see any fear about going to jail, just sheer terror about finding ammo in their pond:
Thing is, I expect there might just as easily be some in any country who react that way they did, US included...
It all depends on people's experiences: I don't think that reaction should be scorned unless we know they should know better...

Quote:
isn't getting the ammo hard in Europe.
Yes, and no. Depends where you live. I have to present a licence to buy ammo, but I can order bullets and cases online from abroad and I'm sure some places will sell you powder and primers without checking any papers.

So... if you have a press and time then it is quite easy to get ammo...

I don't think this would be the case in more stringent countries like UK; Germany, France etc...
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Old October 20, 2013, 12:05 PM   #17
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"Thing is, I expect there might just as easily be some in any country who react that way they did, US included...
It all depends on people's experiences: I don't think that reaction should be scorned unless we know they should know better..."

One should remember some of the comments printed along with articles when a link to a computer site map with the home addresses of people with guns was printed in a US newspaper. There were lots of panicky "common sense" people that thought it was justified because they wanted to know who the dangerous people were in their neighborhood they had to be worried about.

The NFL has now banned off duty police officers from carrying to games. The local Houston news showed video of people thinking this was a great idea to protect us from off duty officers that might get out of hand.
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Old October 21, 2013, 07:58 AM   #18
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Software solutions for printers might block such usage (although I would think that is an easy hack).
My thought - pressure European countries to come to their senses and legalize guns and ammo for all law abiding citizens, and stop these gun-paranoid people from crying and carrying on over nonsense.
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Old October 21, 2013, 09:29 AM   #19
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I don't think this would be the case in more stringent countries like UK; Germany, France etc...
Germany and France are nothing like the uk. handguns are pretty much banned alltogether you gotta jump thru hoops to get hunting guns and semi's are completely banned

in france shotguns aren't regulated at all

in Germany you can get licenses for hunting or sportshooting same as france.
you take a hunting or sport shooting course and a little test basically, pretty much like Sweden
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:52 PM   #20
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Doesn't Germany allow semi autos if you have the license for it? That's better than a lot of Europe.
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Old October 21, 2013, 02:57 PM   #21
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Germany and France are nothing like the uk.
Unless you are saying that France and Germany don't closely regulate the sale of ammo (reloading materials and components to be exact), which is what my comment was in relation to, then they are exactly the same.

Besides I said the more stringent countries, as in a collective that all have well regulated shooting sports. Even if they don't have as tight rules as the UK, their legislation can hardly be called relaxed....
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Last edited by Pond, James Pond; October 21, 2013 at 03:02 PM.
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Old October 22, 2013, 03:58 AM   #22
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There's been a few politicians here calling to have them banned. Don't think anything came of it though.
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Old October 22, 2013, 05:12 AM   #23
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There are people in New Zealand who would act the way the UK couple did, and I'd bet there are people in the US who would too.
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